Re: 'dyeus'

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > I wondered if there was once in Latin a situation where the
> > > > descendant of PIE *j (zero grade of *i) had two socio-
> > > > allophones:
> > > > a 'sacred' *j, and
> > > > a 'profane' *d3,
> > > >
> > > > and that the names of some gods by hypercorrection got *j- for
> > > > PIE *d-j- > *dj-
> > > >
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)
> > > >
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)#Etymology
> > > >
> > > > Ernout-Meillet
> > > > 'Diana, -ae
> > > > (Dīāna, Ov.M.8,353;.
> > > > Dīviāna, Varron, si ce n'est pas une reconstruction
> > > > étymologique sans réalité;
> > > > Iāna Lūna, forme attribuée aux rūsticī par Varron, R.R.1,37,3)
> > > > f.: Diane, déesse nocturne, c.-à-d. Lune:
> > > > Dianam autem et Lunam eandem esse putant, Cic., N.D.2,68;
> > > > proprement "la lumineuse",
> > > > dicta quia noctu quasi diem efficerat, Cic., ibid.3,69;
> > > > cf. Iuppiter Diānus.
> > > > Diane est la déesse qui préside aux opérations magiques, et
> > > > son nom est demeuré dans les langues romanes avec le sens de
> > > > "fée, sorcière", etc., M.L. 2624. Sans doute dérivé de dīus
> > > > par un intermédiaire *dīuius?; cf. étr. tiv; la scansion
> > > > d'Ovide a gardé la quantité ancienne.
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > diū, dius (ū?): pendant le jour.
> > > > Ancien cas de die:s (v. ce mot) conservé dans la locution
> > > > noctū diūque (usité seulement chez les archaïques et les
> > > > archaïsants), et dans interdiū, plus tard interdie: d'après
> > > > hodie:, etc. Il est probable que noctū a été fait d'après diū
> > > > "de jour". Mais le dérivé diurnus, fait sur diu-, doit l'avoir
> > > > été d'après nocturnus, cf.
> > > > gr. νύκτωp "de nuit", νύκτερος, νυκτερινός "nocturne".
> > > > dius: même sens que le précédent, 2 ex. dans la locution noctū
> > > > diusque Pl., Mer.882, Tit., Com.13. On a aussi interdius,
> > > > perdius (Gell., fait secondairement sur pernox). Dius peut
> > > > être un génitif (cf. l'emploi de noctis, νυκτός et les
> > > > génitifs skr. diváh., gr. δι(F)ός), ou une formation
> > > > analogique, comme le génitif skr. dyόh..
> > > > V. die:s.'
> > > >
> > > > Why else *djou- -> Jou- in Jupiter and diu- otherwise?
> > >
> > > Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> > > sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>? I think
> > > instead we should be looking at a Sabine Latin dialect (not
> > > Sabine itself, just as Irish English is not Irish itself). The
> > > gemination of <Juppiter> beside expected *Diu:piter (from the IE
> > > vocative) has parallels in <futtilis> 'easily emptied, leaky,
> > > useless' beside <fu:tilis> and <vitta> 'band, ribbon, fillet'
> > > beside expected *vi:ta. These two words are hardly "sacred";
> > > probably they come from the same rustic Sabinizing dialect as
> > > <Ja:na>. Obviously <Ja:nus>, name of the god of transitions, is
> > > based on IE *yeh2- 'to go from one place to another' and has no
> > > etymological connection with <Dia:na>, but confusion had already
> > > arisen in late antiquity due to the rustic form <Ja:na>.
> > >
> > > Varro says "arae Sabinam linguam olent" which I take to mean not
> > > that the sacrificial priests spoke Sabine, but that they used a
> > > Sabinizing dialect of Latin with technical terms derived from
> > > Sabine. I have argued elsewhere that <sulphur>, <mamphur>, and
> > > <scintilla> owe their peculiar consonantism to this dialect,
> > > these words originally denoting objects used in the
> > > fire-starting ritual (and I am now inclined to add <ra:menta> to
> > > this group). In my view Sabine Latin was used by the
> > > sacrificial priests, by a segment of the Roman underclass, and
> > > by certain rustics, but I have found no concrete evidence of
> > > differentiation among the three sub-dialects.
> >
> > Frankly, how does this stated opinion rhyme with your initial
> > 'Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> > sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>?'?
>
> My opinion is that the bumpkins used a rustic Sabine Latin dialect,
> and the sacrificial priests used a closely related dialect. I see
> no compelling reason to postulate a "sacred sociolect".

But you just did that yourself? Actually, I never used the word 'sociolect', but okay, if the sacrificial priests spoke a dialect closely related to a rustic Sabine Latin as you claim, (which I did too) then they spoke a 'sacred sociolect'.

> > > > The 'profane' allophone *d3 would then have become the norm in
> > > > that late Latin from which the Romance languages (minus
> > > > Romanian?) developed.
> > > >
> > > > Under die:s in Ernout-Meillet, I found
> > > > 'D'une racine *dei- "briller" (dans skr. ádīdet "il
> > > > brillait"), qui est médiocrement attestée, l'indo-européen
> > > > avait deux formations comportant des élargissements,
> >
> > > > l'une en *-eu-, désignant le "ciel lumineux", le "jour"
> > > > (considérés comme des forces actives, divines),
> >
> > > > l'autre en *-en-, qui a subsisté seulement au sens de "jour".
> >
> > > > Les deux sens ont subsisté en latin.'
> > > >
> > > > Which made me wonder if it could be reduced to one root,
> > > > *diŋ which > *diw- and *din- (*ŋ > w and n happens in Baltic
> > > > Finnic).
> > > >
> > > > But then I discovered I already proposed that
> > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65539
> > > >
> > > > The Altaic part of that root:
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/27souut
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/2eo76gh
> > > >
> > > > It makes one wonder whether the Sky God
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Father
> > > > in Indo-European is a loan from the outside (as he was in
> > > > Altaic)?
> > >
> > > I think E-M are on the right track with root-extensions.
> >
> > I think they're not. Semantics-less 'extensions' should not be
> > used in the description of a language. I think it's *-eŋ (and a
> > Rozwadowski's change variant *daŋ- in Germanic *dag- etc ?), which
> > showns it's non-IE.
>
> The extensions have semantics, but they are difficult to determine
> at this time-depth.

The two presumptive extensions both change a root meaning "light, day; god" into stems meaning "light, day; god". They are semantics-less and there is no amount of deferring the question which will turn them into anything else.

> Nevertheless I think *-g^H- clearly means 'inside, within, etc.'.

Where? What? How?

>
> > > Whether or not the Sky Father's "Jovian" religion came from
> > > outside IE, scattered pieces of evidence point to an earlier
> > > solar religion.
> > > I suspect that Jovian evangelists insisted, using whatever force
> > > they found necessary, that the Sun was not a god but a mere
> > > inanimate object. And the old name for the Sun, *h2aws-el- 'the
> > > Shining One' vel sim., was replaced by a tabuistic metathetic
> > > form *sah2w-el-, originally construed in the neuter. But
> > > survivals of the old system persist in Lat. <auster>, discussed
> > > earlier, Sab. <ausel> 'the Sun' (according to Festus the source
> > > of the gentilicium <Aurelius>), and the relics of south-facing
> > > augury, which was superseded by east-facing augury under the
> > > Jovian system.
> > >
> >
> > Anything cluttered with laryngeals gets me suspicious of origin
> > elsewhere. If the language of *saŋ-l- "hole (in the sky"
> > http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66191
> > includes Schrijver's 'language of bird names' with its *a-
> > (*aŋ- ?) prefix, the *saŋ-l- above would have a side form
> > *a(ŋ)-saŋ-l-.
>
> Further comments will follow.
>

I'm looking forward to them.


Torsten