Re: New way of getting Goth-

From: Torsten
Message: 66256
Date: 2010-07-04

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgs001" <st.9eor9e@...> wrote:
>
> >>ka, ko: S kor-ka 'house' (kor 'beam'), vu-ko 'mill' (vu 'water'),
> >>kwa, K kwala 'Udmurt summer hut'
>
> This one: any relation to Turkic-Iranian kula, kala, kale (and their
> Arab equivalent)? (with the meanings "big house, fortress, Burg")

I can't rule it out. No telling what a Wanderwort might do.


> >>G korka 'house, room' |
> >>
> >>Komi ka, ko, ku:
> >>S ker-ka, P ker-ku, P ke•r-ku, kò•r-ku (ker 'beam'),
>
> Are these also to be taken into consideration or are they late
> developments (& loanwords)?

UEW implicitly says they are regularly inherited in Uralic.


> Romanian cer [tSer] "Turkish oak" = Quercus cerris.
> Hungarian cserfa or csertölgy, where cser [tSaer] = Quercus cerris.
>
>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Quercus_cerris_folliage.jpg
>
> (I don't know whether cer+cser are late derivations of [kwerkus].)
> (German Kork < Lat. cortex via Spanish and Dutch, and not from
> Lat. quercus.)

That's how etymological dictionaries like to see it.

> >>S vic´-ko, P vic´-ku 'church' (vi3´ 'fast') |
> >>
> >>Khanty (OL 90) V kat, DN xot, O xat 'house' |
>
> Strange similarity: the German relationship betw. Kote - Kate
> (see below)
>
> >>Hung.
> >>ház (acc. házat) 'house; familiy (Old Hung.) room',
> >>ëgyház 'church', haza 'home, at home; homeland'
>
> A bit more appropriate for this haza ['hO-zO] is hon! (see below)
> (Hungarian ház looks very "Haus/house"-like and "casa"-like. :-))

I noticed that too.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/35095

> > > házas 'married'.
>
> >>Av. kata- 'chamber, storage room, cellar',
> >>Pers. kad 'house'.
> >>Ancient Wanderwort (cf.
> >>Turk. kota 'house',
> >>Mong. qota(n) 'enclosure, village, city, house'
>
> Romanian cätun [k&-'tun]: the smallest village; usu. group of
> shepherd houses. Etymology is not clear. Cf. Balcanic languages:
> katunt, katund(i), katuni, Neo-Greek katouna ("tent"; group of
> tents"), Serb. & Bulgarian katun (with slightly different meanings),
> Gypsy katuna "tent". (Among hypotheses: Treimer: Avar and
> Iranian origin; Turkish katan "enclosure; Gehege = der Hag [ha:g];
> as a toponym, esp. in Bavaria & Austria: Haag, as in NL: Den Haag.)

One gets a sense of 'displaced/enslaved former inhabitants' here.
Gdynia < *Kdúnja and cf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotini
Tawcitus, Germanis 1.43
http://tinyurl.com/35upcc5
'The rear of the Marcommani and Quadi is shut in by the Marsigni, Cotini, Osi and Buri. Of these, the Marsigni and Buri, in language and mode of life, recall the Suebi. The Cotini and Osi are not Germans; that is proved by their languages, Gallic in the one case, Pannonian in the other, and also by the fact that they submit to paying tribute. Part of the tribute is levied by the Sarmatians, part by the Quadi, who regard them as men of foreign blood; the Cotini, more to their shame, have iron to mine. All these people are settled in country with little plain, but plenty of uplands, mountain peaks and high ground. '

> >>Ainui kot '(house) place',
> >>Tamil kut.i 'hut, house').
>
> Niederdeutsch die Kote => Hochdeutsch die Kate = die Hütte "hut".
> (Kote/Kate initially "Höhlung")

English cot, cottage vs. hut etc.
Kuhn mentions it too.


> >>The Hung. derivation házas was by several researchers (
>
> ?! (BTW, for the idea "enclosure", Hungarian uses the roots
> ker-/kör-, that build words also related to the meanings
> "circle, encircle", e.g. kerítés (a deverbal) "fence",
> kert "garden", kör "circle", körül "around, about; umher/herum",
> karika "round, as a circle/ring" etc.
> I.e., nothing from kat-- "enclosure".)

Are you sure? Above, you considered a d/l alternation in assigning Turk etc kula etc to the 'cot' words, so why not d/r?
Cf.
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/kr.html

> >As for the meaning, cf.
> >Fi. kotona "at home"
> >http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kotona
> >Est. kodune, -se "pertaining to one's home, domestic"
>
> I don't know whether etymologically akin (*hoton > hon???),
> but it is the Hungarian hon ("home; Heim"I that rather would
> fit here, instead of ház [ha:z] "house". (It is also contained in
> such modern words as honlap "home page" = web site.)
> (itthon "at home (here)", otthon "at home (there)".)
> (honfitárs "compatriot"; cf. hazafi "patriot")
> (honvágy "Heimweh; homesickness)
> (hontalan "homeless; heimatlos" = hazátlan)
> (honnan "from where/where from; from whence";
> it looks as though it were akin to Old High German hwanan;
> it must be a mere coincidence.)

Again, can't rule it out. But we have to remember that we are dealing with a Wanderwort.


Torsten