Re: The etymology of herold

From: thoresenmorten
Message: 65766
Date: 2010-01-27

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > '...
> > Im Süden dagegen ist das neue H- schon im 2. Jahrhundert vor Chr. in Harigasti (Helm von Negau) und im 1. in Harudes bezeugt (Cäsar). Die viel spätere Verschiebung am unteren Rhein ist am besten verständlich, wenn die Ausbreitung den Nordwestblock umgehen mußte, das heißt, wenn dieser, oder wenigstens ein großer Teil von ihm, damals noch nicht Germanisch sprach. Hierauf deutet auch, daß in ihm zwar die meisten k- verschoben sind — Stammesnamen wie Chamaver, Cherusker und Chatten, Bergnamen wie Hümmling, Hils und Harz, Ortsnamen wie Harste, Heerse und dgl. —, daß aber auch allerlei alte k- unverschoben durchgekommen sind — so in den Ortsnamen Kaldern und Callendoorn und den Appellativen knoll neben hnoll, Rotten neben Hätte, Kumme Kumpf (vgl. gr. kúmbos „Schale") neben Humpen, kring- (vgl. umbr. cring-) neben bring- „Ring", Krippe (vgl. lat. corbis) neben altn. hrip „Korb", ahd. clinga „Schlucht" neben ags. hlinc, und klingen (vgl. lat. clangere) neben altn. hlakka „schreien" —. Sind die genannten Schlüsse recht, dann sind diese letzten Namen und Wörter schwerlich vor der Römerzeit germanisch geworden.'
> > > >
> > > Harigasti remains sub judice.
> > Hm.
>
> Just a thought. If this is a Gmc. name, perhaps the first element is not 'army' but 'praise' vel sim.?
>
> > > Greek <kumbos> is probably non-IE.
> > And so are therefore Kumme, Kumpf and Humpen
>
> Possibly borrowed at different times by different routes, as befits Wanderwoerter. On the other hand Eng. <hump> (from LG/Dutch, no connection to <Humpen>) and the like might be extracted from an adj. *hompelig vel sim., from a pre-Grimm borrowing from Gaul. *cumbalos 'full of valleys, corrugated, humpy', from *cumba 'valley' (cf. We. <cwm>, Fr. dial. <combe>). Again, just a thought.
>
> > > Some of the knoll/hnoll doublets may indeed indicate borrowing of
> > > unshifted terms by shifted dialects, but not necessarily a late
> > > shift.
> >
> > I'm not so sure of that one anymore.
> > de Vries, p. 242
> > 'Wörter mit dem anlaut hn- haben
> > im germ. stark affektive bed.; sie
> > wechseln mit solchen, die mit gn-
> > und kn- anfangen. Im allgemeinen
> > sind es germ. Sonderbildungen, die
> > sich nur ausnahmsweise auf idg.
> > grundformen zurückführen lassen'
> >
> > In some article I found an alternating verb pair in Lithuanian with gn-/z^n- corresponding to a Germanic pair in *kní-/hní-, but now I can't locate it.
>
> This alternation had to start somewhere. My guess is that borrowing across a linguistic boundary led to the association of certain forms with "rustics" or "boors" or whatever. This could have been generalized from a few etymologically straight verbs to a productive process yielding new "affective" verbs with this "boorish" anlaut. Of course, the devil is in the details.
>
> > > Latin <corbis> is probably borrowed from Ligurian, the root being
> > > *(s)ker-, and /s/-mobile gives another way of getting these
> > > doublets.
> >
> > Yes. That's why I wonder if some of the doublets go back to unfamiliar phonemes in loans?
>
> That may well be. All these doublets taken together are quite a mixed bag, and hard to use for dating the consonant-shift. As a terminus ante quem we might be able to use Leyden, Betouwe, and 'breeches', with some reasonable assumptions.
>
> DGK
>


Hello

I searched for "herold" in latin and found:

caduceus +

(Latin: the wand of a herald, herald's staff; specifically, the wand of Hermes [Greek] and Mercury [Latin])

caduceus

1. A staff with two oppositely twined serpents and surmounted by two wings

The caduceus served as the symbol of Hermes and Mercury, the Greek and Roman messenger gods. The caduceus was the sign of a herald and hence a logical symbol for the messenger.

The Latin word caduceus came from the Greek karykeion," from karyx or keryx meaning "herald."

Source: http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/343/

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caduceus

1590s, from L. caduceus, alteration of Doric Gk. karykeion "herald's staff," from karyx (gen. karykos) "a herald," from PIE *karu-, from base *kar- "to praise loudly" (cf. Skt. carkarti "mentions with praise," O.E. hreð "fame, glory"). Especially the wand carried by Mercury, messenger of the gods, usually represented with two serpents twined round it.

Source: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=karyx&searchmode=none

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Could any of this be relevant for your discussion?

Regards

Morten