From: Torsten
Message: 65686
Date: 2010-01-18
> --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:Yes. More accurately they remained as forms with differing sociolects, one of incoming Germani in related But that is correct; furthermore an interpretation that PIE *danu- > Tanew outright demands it, xarigasti-, assuming the formal hat from Negau is really Ariovistus', pushes it back before mid 1st century BCE, and my own tentative *gl-and-Ãk- -> Clondicus even pushes it further back to before the split between Proto-Germanic (Sciri?) and Bastarnian, ie before 200 BCE. On the other hand, no Grimm in Przeginia
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > --- On Sun, 1/17/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > > In the Wikipedia article on the NWB one reads the following:
> > >
> > > "Kuhn noted that since [PIE] /b/ was very rare, and since this
> > > PIE /b/, via Grimm's law, is the only source of regularly
> > > inherited /p/'s in words in Germanic languages, the many words
> > > with /p/'s which do occur must have some other language as
> > > source."
> >
> > Actually, I wrote that.
> >
> > GK: That's perfectly OK.
> >
> Well, thank you.
>
> > > In cybalist message 65652, one reads: "the Grimm sound shift ...
> > > took place, judging from placenames in W Germany and the
> > > Netherlands, no earlier than the 1st cent. BCE."
> > >
> > > It seems to me that the Germanization of the NWB took place
> > > after the Grimm sound shift. otherwise the /p/ words and
> > > toponyms would also have been subject to it. Which means that
> > > the incoming Germani already spoke a language with the familiar
> > > "Germanic" consonants. If this shift occured "no earlier than
> > > the 1rst c. BCE" then the invasion and Germanization of the
> > > area took place still later.
> >
> > Actually, that's how I date the sound shift.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/29016
> >
> > GK: But if the doublets are from the NWB area why could this
> > not simply suggest that Grimm/Verner arrived there with the
> > colonists (and the earlier forms survived) but actually emerged
> > earlier in the colonists' homeland?
>
> Many years ago I worked on a temporary job in the ministry of
> housing on a project which involved people applying for
> compensation for the loss on their property incurred by a zoning
> law, which means I got to see a lot of place names. Among them
> Skjern
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skjern,_Denmark
> and Gjern
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjern
> which show the characteristic Jutland palatalization before front
> vowel (or breaking e > je, depending on your view). The 30-40 year
> old list I worked from had them depalatalized as Skern and Gern.
> Today they are officially Skjern and Gjern, but on Sjælland what
> was once spelled Kjøge and Kjøbenhavn are now spelled Køge
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B8ge
> and København
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B8benhavn
> although the palatalization in those names a few hundred years back
> was just as real as the Jutland one (which in the meanwhile has
> disappeared at least in the cities).
> My point is that in order for two different forms to appear,
> seemingly affected and non-affected by some soundlaw, there must be
> a connection in the mind of the speaker between those two forms,
> ie. the soundlaw is alive and still functioning in his mind as a
> mark of a *sociolect*. And this is what I imagine happened in case
> of the incoming Gemani in NW Germay and Holland: they spoke a
> sociolect of a common language in which Grimm's law had already
> applied.
>
> *****GK: How would this differ from what I said earlier, viz., that
> the doublets remained as part of the developing "local" Germanic
> language because the Grimm-shifted incoming Germani mixed with the
> NWB-ers and in the linguistic interplay many of the old place names
> survived as part of the common stock, while the NWB'ers adopted the
> Grimm-shifted speech of the colonists. On this perspective the
> actual Grimm shift could have occurred in the colonizing area a
> long time before their invasion of the NWB territory.*****