From: george knysh
Message: 65687
Date: 2010-01-18
--- On Mon, 1/18/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
GK: How would this differ from what I said earlier, viz., that
> the doublets remained as part of the developing "local" Germanic
> language because the Grimm-shifted incoming Germani mixed with the
> NWB-ers and in the linguistic interplay many of the old place names
> survived as part of the common stock, while the NWB'ers adopted the
> Grimm-shifted speech of the colonists. On this perspective the
> actual Grimm shift could have occurred in the colonizing area a
> long time before their invasion of the NWB territory.** ***
Yes. More accurately they remained as forms with differing sociolects, one of incoming Germani in related But that is correct; furthermore an interpretation that PIE *danu- > Tanew outright demands it, xarigasti-, assuming the formal hat from Negau is really Ariovistus', pushes it back before mid 1st century BCE, and my own tentative *gl-and-Ãk- -> Clondicus even pushes it further back to before the split between Proto-Germanic (Sciri?) and Bastarnian,
****GK: I'm not sure there's too much difference between "Scirian" and "Bastarnian" from the Germanic angle. In earlier times, "Bastarnian" would be a designation for the allied Sciri and "Galatae" (Celts), and the statement in Livy that Danubian Celts would have understood the language of the Bastarnians suggests a functioning Celtic-Germanic bilingualism at that time (later lost).****
ie before 200 BCE. On the other hand, no Grimm in Przeginia
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/59398
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Przeginia
I'm not convinced it's a loan
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/20843
So the incoming Germani from Przeworsk
****GK: And from Yastorf. There is more evidence for Przeworsk in Thuringia and Hesse, but the absence of Yastorf (if it is in fact absent)seems accidental. We know that the Germani of Ariovistus (and of his successors) largely came from Przeworsk and Yastorf areas, since parts of West Przeworsk and East Yastorf were nearly depopulated at that time.****
would have spoken post-Grimm Germanic and the resident NWBers/laeti
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/64932
the thread starting in
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/65502
cf also Etruscan lautn, gen. lautun "family"(?)
would have spoken a similar, unshifted language, much like today (or yesterday) in that area the locals speak Platt and the incoming people who matter speak Hochdeutsch.
Torsten