Re: Rozwadowski's Change

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:

>
> I meant to post this before I went out of town over
> Thanksgiving.
>
> At 11:18:05 AM on Wednesday, November 25, 2009, Torsten
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > [O]nly as long as Grimm's law functioned as a sociological
> > marker between the incoming elite and the locals would
> > Grimm's law be applied to local place names, after the
> > hierarchical relationship is established the upper class
> > will feel they can 'afford' to pronounce local names the
> > local way; this means only backwaters get to keep the
> > original non-Grimm names.
>
> An unconvincing just-so story. Taffimai is disappointed.

I am sorry to hear that Taffimai is unconvinced.

> > Cf.
> > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Shibbolethisation.html
>
> 'The extended version of that expression is "we say A - they
> say B - you say B, and therefore we'll kill you". I know of
> three examples.' None of your examples supports the
> extended version: in every case the difference in
> pronunciation is simply a tool for identifying enemies to
> whom one is hostile for other reasons.
>

That's true. Thinking otherwise would entail that you also thought the French revolution was about whether you found the Phrygian cap chic or not. I short you'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise. A shibboleth is exactly that: a linguistic mark that is taken to stand for a whole package.

> > For a similar example
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diepholz
> > vs. eg.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_van_Diepholt
>
> Normalized forms in encyclopedias and history books are
> generally worthless as evidence of contemporary practice.

Erh, assuming you know what you're saying here, what is it?

> In this case the various Wikipedias offer a nice object
> lesson: the German Wikipedia article normalizes the name to
> <Rudolf von Diepholz>, the French to <Rodolphe de Diepholt>,
> and the Dutch, like the English, to <Rudolf van Diepholt>.

And that is relevant because?

> > The German place name should properly be either Low German
> > Diepholt or High German Tiefholz; only -holt, recognizable
> > as "wood" or "forest" has been 'translated' into High
> > German, whereas diep-, which makes dubious sense as "deep
> > forest", was opaque and has therefore not been translated.
>
> As usual, you didn't bother to do even cursory checking.

Actually, I did recall vaguely that that Diep- part etymologically wasn't the "deep" word.

> In
> fact the oldest forms that I can find have <f>, and there
> are at least two legends explaining the first element as
> 'deep'; see <http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Diepholz> and its
> references. With that as starting point I find, among
> others:
>
> <Cono de Thefholte> 1160
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=kWQPAAAAQAAJ>, pp. 292-3
>
> <Guillemus de Thieffholt> 1160
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=UWQPAAAAQAAJ>, p. 78
>
> <Johannes de Thefholte> 1218
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=SgYPAAAAYAAJ>, p. 362
>
> <Cono, Rodolfus, Godescalcus de Thefholte> 1219
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=SgYPAAAAYAAJ>, p. 374
> 'Die edlen Herren von Thefholte erscheinen häufig in
> Osnabrückischen und Bremischen Urkunden. ... Der Bremische
> Domherr Johannes findet sich unten in Urkunden vom Jahre
> 1219 bis 1230. Ferner 1231 also Propst zu St. Stephani zu
> Bremen. ... 1239 Propst zu St. Wilhadi ... . Cono,
> Domherr zu Halberstadt, in Urkunden vom Jahre 1253 bis
> 1258, angeführt in Rathlef Geschichte von Hoya und
> Diepholz S. 129. Auch in der Urkunde vom Jahre 1257 ... .'
>
> <ego Johannes et ego Cono fratres nobiles de Thefholte>
> 1233
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=96QKAAAAIAAJ>, p. 240
> Identified in the regest as Edelherren von Diepholz.
>
> <Cono de Defholte> 1243
> <http://www.archive.org/stream/urkundenbuchdes01gergoog#page/n57/mode/1up>
> <Cononem de Diepholte> 1245
> <http://www.archive.org/stream/urkundenbuchdes01gergoog#page/n83/mode/1up>
>
> <Rudulfus et Conradus fratres nobiles viri de Defholthe>,
> <Rudolfo et Conrado nobilibus viris de Defholte> 1284
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=WsAGAAAAYAAJ>, p. 459
>
> And if the admittedly old (1840) source cited for the likely
> etymology is correct, the first element may not have been
> opaque locally:
>
> Das Wort Deven oder Dieven fände dann seine Ableitung in
> dem altsächsischen Devern, nach der Dammeschen und
> Osnabrückschen Mundart Diävern (das iä als Doppellauter
> ausgesprochen), welches zittern, beben, d.i. die
> schwankende Bewegung des mit Holze besetzten Moorbodens,
> bezeichnet.
>
> Deefholt wird noch gegenwärtig in der Umgegend der Ort
> genannt, und Diepholz ist eine nach der oberdeutschen
> Sprache umgemodelte Benennung, die mit der Reformation
> aufkam, und seitdem erst in Schriften gebraucht wurde.

But it would have been opaque non-locally, and it might even have been re-verhochdeutscht, if Diep- had made sense as "deep" in connection with -holt.



Torsten