From: dgkilday57
Message: 65421
Date: 2009-11-14
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:You are referring Lat. <pa:pilio:> to *palpal-, then? What about Ital. <farfalla> and its numerous dialectal variants? Similar phonetic shape for 'butterfly' words does not necessarily imply common origin, when different phonemes are reflected.
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Hodge notes (p. 246) that the Egyptian consonant
> > > > transcribed /3/ actually had the phonetic value [l] in the Old
> > > > and Middle Kingdoms. We thus have Egy. <p-l> 'fly up',
> > > > <n-p-l-p-l> 'flutter' which can reasonably be compared with
> > > > Hausa <filfilwàà> 'fluttering', Ometo <pal-> 'fly', and
> > > > Cushitic *pal- 'flutter'. (Semantically close, though not
> > > > mentioned by Hodge, is Semitic *p-l-t, Arabic <falata> 'flee,
> > > > escape', and perhaps Sem. *p-l-s, Ge`ez <falasa> 'emigrate'.)
> > > > Also, Egy. <p-r-t> 'fruit' can reasonably be compared with Sem.
> > > > *pary- 'id.' (Hebrew <pri:>). But there is no basis for
> > > > relating this 'fruit' root to the 'fly' root, simply because
> > > > fruit flies like bananas. Hodge attempts to bridge these
> > > > senses with Egy. <p-r-?> 'go out', High East Cushitic *ful-
> > > > 'id.', and Sem. *-prur- 'flee'. But the presumed relation
> > > > between <p-r-?> and *ful- contradicts that already assumed
> > > > between Egy. <p-l> and Cush. *pal-, and throwing in *-prur-
> > > > helps nothing. Likewise, connecting Chadic *p-r 'fly, jump'
> > > > with Cush. *par- 'id.' and Berber *f-r-f-r 'fly' (Touareg
> > > > <fereret> 'take flight') makes good sense, but including these
> > > > with Egy. <p-l> and the rest assumes an arbitrary
> > > > r/l-alternation. That seems to be the heart of the problem
> > > > with this sort of research. To me it appears that Hodge has
> > > > conflated three distinct AA roots:
> > > >
> > > > 1a. *p-l 'fly', frequentative *p-l-p-l 'flutter', in Egy.,
> > > > Chad., Omot., and Cush., possibly in Semitic 'move swiftly'
> > > > with root-extensions.
> > > >
> > > > 1b. *p-r 'jump, take flight', freq. *p-r-p-r 'fly', in Ber.,
> > > > Chad., and Cush.
> > > >
> > > > 1c. *p-r 'fruit', with nominal suffixation (not
> > > > root-extensions) in Egy. and Sem.
> > > >
> > > > The other words listed here by Hodge have only gratuitous
> > > > similarity. His inclusion of IE *per- 'fly' (actually 'pass
> > > > over'), *per- 'forward', *per- 'bear offspring', and *pel-
> > > > 'thrust' is too silly for comment.
> > >
> > > French papillon.
> >
> > What about it?
>
> p-p-l-. Cf
>
> Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages
> 'CK. *p.erp.er- 'butterfly':
> Georg. p.ep.el-a- 'butterfly';
> Megr. parpal(ia)-, papralia-; Laz parpal-;
> Svan p.ep.el, p.ärp.old, p.ärp.änd.
>
> Possibly dates from the Common Kartvelian stage. The word is formed by reduplicating the verb stem *p.er- 'to fly'. It occurs in Old Georgian (p.ep.eli igi okrojsaj 'a gold butterfly' Lev. 8.9). The final a of the Georgian form is a recent evaluation affix. The same must be said on the word-final -ia of the Megrelian cognate. The unusual replacement of p. by p in Zan may be ascribed to the onomatopoeic character of the verb stem. Analogies of the latter are available also in the Svan forms.'
> > > I'm afraid I have done something even more impressionisticIf Skt. reflects the original accent, Gmc. *apan- inherited from a /k/-less form is impossible. Monkeys are not native to Germany anyhow, so Celtic intermediacy makes good sense.
> > > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Op.html
> >
> > All those water-words with labials, and what happened to Gmc.
> > *apan- from Gaul. *abona 'water-sprite'? Did the poor monkey drown
> > in all the confusion?
>
> Nah, it has a variant with initial *k- (Gr. ke:~pos, Skt. kapí), so naturally it didn't belong here. ;-)
> > > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Opr.htmlA grandiose scenario indeed, but I can hardly grasp such matters. I like to work on the level of individual words and groups of words. Sweeping panoramic views are best left to others.
> > >
> > > It seems the confusion has even wider boundaries.
> >
> > Yes, that seems like hyper-Hodgeism, and the point of stacking up
> > such a mountain of glosses escapes me, unless you are a pharmacist
> > trying to increase sales of eye drops.
>
> I thought something is wrong with the traditional idea of two world centers of development working independently, one Middle East, the other Far East. We need a mechanism for tying them together, other than the overland route through Russia. Malayo-Polynesian trade networks in the Indian Ocean would fit the bill (I was inspired by Oppenheimer's 'Eden in the East'
> http://tinyurl.com/yc5xfa9
> ). Note that the dispersion of this *(a)bh/p-l/r- root in Austronesian is at least as large as it is in IE and Semitic.
>
> With such a large semantic spread we need to find its startpoint; I believe its something about a river, its two sides, getting across it, the division of the two banks between the principle of life and death, moieties assigned to either bank in such a society etc. And the date would around the invention of agriculture, and the Wörter would be of those Sachen which were entailed by this new technology.