From: Torsten
Message: 65428
Date: 2009-11-15
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:'CK *p.er- 'to fly':
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Hodge notes (p. 246) that the Egyptian consonant
> > > > > transcribed /3/ actually had the phonetic value [l] in the
> > > > > Old and Middle Kingdoms. We thus have Egy. <p-l> 'fly up',
> > > > > <n-p-l-p-l> 'flutter' which can reasonably be compared with
> > > > > Hausa <filfilwàà> 'fluttering', Ometo <pal-> 'fly', and
> > > > > Cushitic *pal- 'flutter'. (Semantically close, though not
> > > > > mentioned by Hodge, is Semitic *p-l-t, Arabic <falata>
> > > > > 'flee, escape', and perhaps Sem. *p-l-s, Ge`ez <falasa>
> > > > > 'emigrate'.) Also, Egy. <p-r-t> 'fruit' can reasonably be
> > > > > compared with Sem. *pary- 'id.' (Hebrew <pri:>). But there
> > > > > is no basis for relating this 'fruit' root to the 'fly'
> > > > > root, simply because fruit flies like bananas. Hodge
> > > > > attempts to bridge these senses with Egy. <p-r-?> 'go out',
> > > > > High East Cushitic *ful- 'id.', and Sem. *-prur- 'flee'.
> > > > > But the presumed relation between <p-r-?> and *ful-
> > > > > contradicts that already assumed between Egy. <p-l> and
> > > > > Cush. *pal-, and throwing in *-prur- helps nothing.
> > > > > Likewise, connecting Chadic *p-r 'fly, jump' with Cush.
> > > > > *par- 'id.' and Berber *f-r-f-r 'fly' (Touareg <fereret>
> > > > > 'take flight') makes good sense, but including these with
> > > > > Egy. <p-l> and the rest assumes an arbitrary
> > > > > r/l-alternation. That seems to be the heart of the problem
> > > > > with this sort of research. To me it appears that Hodge
> > > > > has conflated three distinct AA roots:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1a. *p-l 'fly', frequentative *p-l-p-l 'flutter', in Egy.,
> > > > > Chad., Omot., and Cush., possibly in Semitic 'move swiftly'
> > > > > with root-extensions.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1b. *p-r 'jump, take flight', freq. *p-r-p-r 'fly', in
> > > > > Ber., Chad., and Cush.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1c. *p-r 'fruit', with nominal suffixation (not
> > > > > root-extensions) in Egy. and Sem.
> > > > >
> > > > > The other words listed here by Hodge have only gratuitous
> > > > > similarity. His inclusion of IE *per- 'fly' (actually
> > > > > 'pass over'), *per- 'forward', *per- 'bear offspring', and
> > > > > *pel- 'thrust' is too silly for comment.
> > > >
> > > > French papillon.
> > >
> > > What about it?
> >
> > p-p-l-. Cf
> >
> > Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages
> > 'CK. *p.erp.er- 'butterfly':Ernout-Meillet:
> > Georg. p.ep.el-a- 'butterfly';
> > Megr. parpal(ia)-, papralia-; Laz parpal-;
> > Svan p.ep.el, p.ärp.old, p.ärp.änd.
> >
> > Possibly dates from the Common Kartvelian stage. The word is
> > formed by reduplicating the verb stem *p.er- 'to fly'. It occurs
> > in Old Georgian (p.ep.eli igi okrojsaj 'a gold butterfly' Lev.
> > 8.9). The final a of the Georgian form is a recent evaluation
> > affix. The same must be said on the word-final -ia of the
> > Megrelian cognate. The unusual replacement of p. by p in Zan may
> > be ascribed to the onomatopoeic character of the verb stem.
> > Analogies of the latter are available also in the Svan forms.'
>
> You are referring Lat. <pa:pilio:> to *palpal-, then? What about
> Ital. <farfalla> and its numerous dialectal variants? Similar
> phonetic shape for 'butterfly' words does not necessarily imply
> common origin, when different phonemes are reflected.
> > > > I'm afraid I have done something even more impressionisticI know. Just want to point out:
> > > > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Op.html
> > >
> > > All those water-words with labials, and what happened to Gmc.
> > > *apan- from Gaul. *abona 'water-sprite'? Did the poor monkey
> > > drown in all the confusion?
> >
> > Nah, it has a variant with initial *k- (Gr. ke:~pos, Skt. kapí),
> > so naturally it didn't belong here. ;-)
>
> If Skt. reflects the original accent, Gmc. *apan- inherited from a
> /k/-less form is impossible. Monkeys are not native to Germany
> anyhow, so Celtic intermediacy makes good sense.
>
> > > > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Opr.html
> > > >
> > > > It seems the confusion has even wider boundaries.
> > >
> > > Yes, that seems like hyper-Hodgeism, and the point of stacking
> > > up such a mountain of glosses escapes me, unless you are a
> > > pharmacist trying to increase sales of eye drops.
> >
> > I thought something is wrong with the traditional idea of two
> > world centers of development working independently, one Middle
> > East, the other Far East. We need a mechanism for tying them
> > together, other than the overland route through Russia. Malayo-
> > Polynesian trade networks in the Indian Ocean would fit the bill
> > (I was inspired by Oppenheimer's 'Eden in the East'
> > http://tinyurl.com/yc5xfa9
> > ). Note that the dispersion of this *(a)bh/p-l/r- root in
> > Austronesian is at least as large as it is in IE and Semitic.
> >
> > With such a large semantic spread we need to find its startpoint;
> > I believe its something about a river, its two sides, getting
> > across it, the division of the two banks between the principle of
> > life and death, moieties assigned to either bank in such a
> > society etc. And the date would around the invention of
> > agriculture, and the Wörter would be of those Sachen which were
> > entailed by this new technology.
>
> A grandiose scenario indeed, but I can hardly grasp such matters.
> I like to work on the level of individual words and groups of
> words. Sweeping panoramic views are best left to others.