Fw: Re: [tied] Re: Frankish origins

From: Torsten
Message: 65322
Date: 2009-10-28

-- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
> At 4:10:01 PM on Sunday, October 25, 2009, Torsten wrote:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/yjcsxkk
> > Danish original
> > http://www.verasir.dk/show.php?file=chap22-1-1.html
>
> He writes:
>
> I Kalevala har Ukko heitet "ylijumala", der i dag
> oversættes til "God of Mercy/Lykkens Gud", men oprindeligt
> må have haft betydningen "Julens Herre", jvf. julemandens
> navn "Ýlir" i Norge/Island i 900 tallet e.Kr.
>
> But <ylijumala> is 'high god' (<yli> 'over, above; more
> than', <jumala> 'god'). In fact, Václav Blaz^ek thinks that
> the name <Ukko> itself is an adaptation of Baltic *uka- >
> Prussian <ucka-> 'prefix expressing the superlative' (as in
> <ucka-kuslaisin> 'weakest'): the first god of the Prussian
> pantheon is in record as <Occopirmus> 'Saturnus' 1530,
> <Ockopirmus> 'der erste Gott Himmels vnd Gestirnes' (16th
> cent.), and <Occopirnum> 'deum coeli et terrae' 1563. He
> concludes: 'It is generally accepted that the compound
> *Uka-pirmas meant "most first"'.

But where does that leave Öku-Þor then?
And on that standard assumption of Baltic Finnic loans from Baltic: don't forget that Baltic is now considered a newcomer to the Baltic which makes a common 'North European' substrate more likely as donor.


> <http://www.leidykla.eu/fileadmin/Baltistika/39_-_2/04-Blazek.pdf>
>
> For that matter, <Ýlir> is the name of a month running from
> mid-November to mid-December.
>
>
> The interpretation of Þórsdrápa 12:5-8 is certainly a bit
> idiosyncratic.
>
> þá er funhristis fasta
> flóðrifs Danir stóðu
> knáttu Jólnis ættir
> útvés fyrir lúta
>
> Different editors have distributed the genitives
> differently, but one reasonable prose rendering is indeed
> the one that he used:
>
> Danir flóðrifs útvés knáttu lúta fyrir [þeim], þá er ættir
> funhristis Jólnis stóðu fasta.
>
> Danes of the flood-rib of the outlying sanctuary could bow
> down before (them), when (the) kinsmen of Jólnir's
> flame-shaker stood fast.
>
> <Flóð> is also 'high tide', and <flóðrif> 'flood-rib, rib of
> the high tide' looks like a term for a skerry. <Útvé>
> 'outlying sanctuary' looks like a parallel to <Útgarða-> in
> <Útgarða-Loki>, referring to Jötunheimr; the 'Danes' of its
> skerry would be giants.
>
> <Jólnir> is one of Óðin's names, and <funi Jólnis> 'Óðin's
> flame' is a kenning for 'sword', so <funhristir Jólnis>
> 'Óðin's flame-shaker' = <hristir Jólnis funa> 'shaker of
> Óðin's flame' = 'sword-shaker' = 'warrior'. Presumably
> their kinsmen are also warriors. Thus:
>
> Giants bowed down before them when (the) warriors stood
> fast.

Probably true, but doesn't affect his point.

>
> He has a grammatical problem with the verse from
> Skáldskaparmál:
>
> Jólna sumbl
> enn vér gátum,
> stillis lof,
> sem steina brú.
>
> Here <jólna> is clearly a genitive plural, not the gen.
> sing. that he wants it to be.
>
> (The) gods' banquet/drink [= poetry];
> we yet fashioned,
> (the) king's praise,
> like a stone's bridge.
>
> (It's possible that <enn> should be read as <en> 'but/and',
> if the first line continues the preceding strophe.)

True, bungled, but...
I don't think we can escape 'jól' on this one.

de Vries
jóln n. pl. 'götter' (< urn. *jo:li:na), also eig. 'Julgötter' und Jólnir m. 'Odinsname' — vgl. jól.

and cf
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63563
and de Vries
'joll n. 'lärm, streit' (nur überl. Ls. 3).
Am nächsten kommt
nnorw. jolla 'schwätzen',
nschw. joller 'gelall, gefasel', jollra 'lallen'.
An einen Schreibfehler für *oll (vgl. ae. oll 'schmähung, schimpf) ist natürlich nicht zu denken (Gering, Edda-komm. 1, 278). Am einfachsten ist es mit Jóhannesson, Wb. 100, es als. schallwort zu betrachten; dann gehört es offenbar zur gruppe von jalma, jarma.

Auffallend sind ähnliche worter im wgerm. wie
mnd jo:len 'jubeln', mhd. 'jo:len 'laut singen', weiter nnl. joelen 'lärmen', vgl. auch nnl. joedelen, nhd. jodeln. Obgleich etymologisch nicht unmittelbar mit an. jollra verwandt (das wgerm. wort sollte ja im an. *ollra heissen), scheint hier eine ähnliche lautmalende bildung vorzuliegen.'

Hellquist
'jollra, 1667: jålra ds., jfr
sv. dial., ä. nsv. jola J. Swedberg,
no. jolla ds.,
no. juldra, gnola,
o. sv. jolta; liksom
ä. nsv. jorla 1639, 1649, Bellman -
fin.-sv. dial. jorla,
ljudhärmande bildningar, sannol. uppkomna oberoende av varandra. Omöjligt är dock ej, såsom också antagits, att jollra uppstått ur jorla genom metates el. genom
anslutning till dial. jola.
Jfr porla (pollra).'


> I also looked at his discussion of English place-names:
>
> I Domesday Book fra år 1086 e.Kr. forekommer i landskabet
> "Yorkshire Wolds", et bakket område i East Riding,
> Yorkshire det latiniserede mandsnavn "Iole":
>
> Den oldengelske tekst lyder i min oversættelse til
> nudansk: "I Beswick tun er der 2 og en halv carucates
> gæld, og endnu en halv der tilhørte Iole, som to (plove
> kan pløje)". Enheden "carucates" er fra latin "caruca"
> eller "plov".
>
> Bygden "Basewic" (Beswick) er en bygd i East Riding,
> Yorkshire. Mandsnavnet "Iole" er kaldenavnet "Jóli", der
> igen er en forkortet udgave af det oldnordiske mandsnavn
> "Jólgeirr" (Göngu-Hrólfs saga, kap. 6 og Landnámabók, kap.
> 8 med bl.a. "Jólgeirsstöðum").
>
> The Landnámabók name is probably an OWScand. spelling of
> OEScand. <Iulger>: his brother's name is given as <Ráðormr>,
> which I believe is not otherwise attested in OWScand.
>
> Dette navn forekommer på olddansk som "Iulger"
> ((i)u(l)kiR) på Klemensker-stenen, Bornholm (DR 403)
> dateret til år 1050-1150 e.Kr. På Smula Kyrkogård stenen,
> Västergötland (Vg184), dateret til sent 1000 tallet e.Kr.
> med kristent kors afbildet, forekommer navnet identisk med
> Yorkshire gengivelsen som "Jula, Juli" (iula), hvilken
> sten indtil 1790erne oprindeligt stod i den lille bygd
> Jula, 9 km øst for Mariestad, Västergötland.
>
> Traditionel sprogforskning vil gerne føre forstavelsen i
> dette navn til "Ígul" med betydningen "pindsvin,
> søpindsvin". Det sker formentlig fordi mandsnavnet
> "Ihulkai" (Ígulgeir?) forekommer på Uppsala-stenen (U938),
> dateret til sent 1000 tallet e.Kr. med kristent kors
> afbildet.
>
> Denne fortolkning finder jeg endog meget svagt
> argumenteret, og mener at vi skal se navnet som sammensat
> af "Jól" (Jul) og "geirr" (spyd), der i 1000 tallet e.Kr.
> er blevet det "civile" navn for "Jólnir", som Jarl og
> Erling er blevet simple drengenavne fra det oprindelige
> ErilaR (Jarl) æt.
>
> His objection is misplaced, since several names clearly in
> <Ígul-> are known from runic inscriptions, as is the simplex
> <Ígull>. From Rundata, keeping only the spellings with <g>
> or <h>:
>
> Ígulbiörn
> Nom. ig(u)lbi(u)rn U667, ihulbarn U593, ihulbiarn *857,
> U925, ihulbiurn U901, U904, [ikulbiarn] U51+, ikulburn
> U963
> Acc. igulbiarn *922$, ihulbiarn Sö2, Sö141, ikulbiaurn
> Sö229,
>
> Ígulfastr
> Nom. ihulfastr *279, U961, ikulfastr U624, UFv1953;263
> Acc. ikulfast U939
>
> Ígulfríðr
> Nom. [ikulfriþ] U582+
>
> Ígull
> Nom. igul Sö350, ihul U620$, U940, U1027, U1047, ikul
> Sö232, U202
> Acc. igul Sö381, ihul U997, U1154, [ihul] U378, M14+,
> ikhul U758, ikul U624, (i)kul NA13
>
> The name <Iuli> is found not only in the acc. as <iula> on
> Vg184, but also in the nom. as <iuli> on Sö362$; as he says,
> it's taken to be a short form of names in <Ígul->.
>
> De tidligst kendte stednavne i Britannien, hvori indgår
> "Jól", er "Youlton" (Jól's tun) i North Yorkshire, og
> "Youlthorpe" (Jól's thorp) i East Riding, Yorkshire.
>
> Here's what Watts has to say about the place-names:
>
> S.n. <Youlton>: 'Joli's estate'. <Loletun(e)> (for
> <Iole-> 1086, <Yolton'> 1295-1508.
>
> S.n. <Youlthorpe>: 'Eyjulfr's outlying farm', later
> 'Yole's outlying farm', with spellings <Aiul(f)torp> 1086,
> <Hiel-, Hioltorp> 12th c., <Yolt(h)orpe(e)> 12th-1359.
> From the 12th cent. this name contains a different
> pers.n., ME <Yole> from ON <Jól>, <Jóli>.
>
> So this one apparently never did contain the Scandinavian
> name as such and didn't acquire its ME borrowing until the
> 12th century.

Apparently Watts' Eyulfr hangs on the 1086 form alone. Are you sure that is not a folk normalization of an unusual name? The anlaut alternation shown in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63563
tempts one to reconstruct a *iul-/iGul-/ihul- vel sim., which also means no porcupine into the picture.

But other than that, great work as usual; thanks, Brian!


Torsten