Re: Jastorf - Przeworsk

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- On Sun, 10/25/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > GK: One question comes to mind. I forget whether the term for
> > "foreigner" based on the Celtic Volcae appears anywhere in this
> > intermediate area.
>
> There's an interesting answer to that.
>
> Villigst, on the Ruhr across from Schwerte, old Vilgeste Viliste,
>
>
> As I noted before (after various Polish linguists), there is an
> alternation *w-/*b-, from a rule in 'Northern Venetic' *w- -> *b-,
> in the roots *wolg and *bolg-
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/64012
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/60861
>
> To make a long tale short, the NWBlock people might have called the
> Volcae either *Vilg-,
> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Schwerte
> (Villigst)
> or, where Veneti had taken over, *Bill- (Bilisti near Paderborn)
> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Paderborn
>
> This answers Meid's critique of Kuhn's assumed alternating inlaut
> variants in Bilisti and Villigst
>
> ****GK: According to this, the Volcae were southern neighbours both
> to the Jastorfers and to the NWB people. The Jastorfer designation
> became the Germanic term for "foreigner". It seems strange to
> suppose that this term applied to the NWBers. Originally this
> wouldn't make sense since the NWB were obviously not Volcae. I
> wonder if there is any way of knowing what the Jastorfers called
> them. Or what the NWB called the Jastorfers. Also: might we assume
> that by the time "Volcae" became the generic Germanic term for
> "foreigner" the integration of Jastorfer and NWB was an
> accomplished fact. Caesar in DBG 6 possibly reflects this, since
> for him the Volcae of Germany are still Volcae, while the erstwhile
> NWB are just as "Germani" as their eastern neighbours. This could
> have occurred in the generation prior to 53 BCE, with the Germanic
> Volcae integrated in the subsequent generation(s); certainly by the
> time of Tacitus the process was long ended.****

Kuhn's article 'Welsch-Namen zwischen Weser und Rhein' is relevant here, perhaps I should translate it; but check the archives with 'welsch', I've discussed it before. Seems there is a layer of 'welsh' names in NW Germany, but with an even older layer of 'windisch' names. There are some relevant maps from Udolph in the files section.


Also, Kuhn points out that the names Arminius is not a typical two-element Germanic name (Tor-sten etc)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/31892
The demise of the Cherusci
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherusci
would have been the result of encroaching Germani, ie. Suebi.
There is a story in one of the sources that one of the tribes in the NWB area, 50,000 in all, was annihilated by their neighbors in this period, but I can't find it now.


Torsten