From: gknysh@...
Message: 64426
Date: 2009-07-26
--- On Sun, 7/26/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 7/25/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
>
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> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> > --- On Fri, 7/24/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Why do you keep mentioning Wielbark?
> >
> > GK: Because that is another local culture where inhumations
> > appear "suddenly". And Wielbark replaces a cremation culture
> > (Oksywie). Wielbark is bi-ritual, and there is nothing in the
> > funeral inventory to suggest alien ethnic influx.
>
> Except that we know there was.
>
> GK: Not until the later 1rst c. AD and at that time the
> biritual system was already in place. There is no evidence it came
> from Scandinavia.
Inhumation had started in Scandinavia at that time in a culture that till then was exclusively cremating.
****GK: You have offered no evidence as to this for the period prior to the formation of Wielbark (which emerged in the first decades of the 1rst c.) and no evidence that the inhumation burials of this early Wielbark came from Scandinavia. The opinion of professional archaeologists seem to me to be preferable to those of ideological Snorrists.*****
> > That makes it similar to the 1rst c. BCE Przeworsk inhumations,
> > and to Eggers' and Lichardus' Elbe Germanic situation.
>
> Yes it does. It also, as your argument stands, gives us a
> precedence of a culture which we know has foreign influence,
>
> GK: It's really wonderful to see how addiction to a fantasy
> interferes with the most elementary mental processes. There is a
> big difference between "foreign influence" and "foreign influx",
> and normally you can appreciate this. But when your knee-jerk
> Snorrism activates the most obvious distinctions are forgotten
> and/or jettisoned. As evidenced by your further comments below.
That's how you usually behave to cover up shaky reasoning. The text you refer takes much pains to claim Scandinavian influence instead of Scandinavian influx and then goes on about the traces of the Scandinavians who supposedly weren't there.
****GK: You seem to have as much difficulty in understanding English texts as French ones. The author accepts the fact of Scandinavian influx after the mid- 1rst c. AD (he even gives you the precise location of the incoming communities.) The Wielbark culture of the 2nd c. is a fusion of Continental and Scandinavian ethna. Not so the earlier Wielbark. And biritualism already existed in this pre-Scandinavian arrival Wielbark.****
> which changes to inhumation, and yet has no detectable foreign
> influence in the find material. Since it is similar to the 1rst c.
> BCE Przeworsk inhumations, and to Eggers' and Lichardus' Elbe
> Germanic situation they therefore also have non-detectable foreign
> influence. Own goal.
>
> GK: But they have a good argument for the source of this
> "foreign influence". You on the other hand, don't.
But they don't. They don't point to a single structural similarity between the much earlier Celtic graves and those two (three) inhumation schools.
****GK: You've read the article Wozniak cites? It seems to point out precisely that. You're dissatisfied with Lichardus' and Eggers' analyses? You've read the sources they cite for their opinion on the Przeworsk inhumations you place so much hope in? *****
> Thank you, George, for providing me with this wonderful argument.
> BTW And you call *me* dense?
>
> GK: Snorrism seems to be not only a serious but apparently an
> incurable mental affliction.. .
Mattflykt, say the Swedes.
> > My view is that the Wielbark shift might have been influenced by
> > the earlier Marbod shift since the Gutones were part of his
> > empire.
>
> My view is that Wielbark shift was influenced by the immigrating
> Goths who were an original people of Scandinavia leaving because of
> the invasion of inhumating Germani, but being lead by some of them,
> therefore the partial inhumation fashion.
>
> GK: Re-read this:
> http://www.muzarp poznan.pl/ archweb/gazociag /title5.htm
>
> There is no evidence for "immigrating Goths" from Scandinavia until
> the second half of the 1rst c. The author surmises Wielbark
> biritualism was influenced from Pomerania. But he leaves the
> question open and assigns the choice to "family traditions". Your
> own "theory" is just a set of arbitrary assertions without a shred
> of evidence to back them up.
The fact that many cemeteries Oksywie cemeteries continued into Wielbark means the incoming Scandinavians didn't kill them or chase them off, at least not all of them. How that can be interpreted to mean that no one arrived is beyond me.
****GK: Probably because there is no material evidence proving Scandinavian presence at this early formative period (1-ca.40/50) of Wielbark. Snorrist ideology doesn't seem to cut it with professional archaeologists.*****
Here's your 'foreign influence' as opposed to 'foreign influx':
'Wielbark communities comprised mostly members of tribes already settled in this area with the addition of Scandinavian migrants'
Obviously, Mackiewicz is the one who can't distinguish properly between 'foreign influence' and 'foreign influx' which failure you then in your confused mind accuse me of.
****GK: Pablum for Torsten: M. accepts Scandinavian "outside" influence for the formative period of Wielbark.(The Polish text is actually less yielding on this point. It says "at the most" for the English version's "possibly": that's how far M. is willing to go with the "traditional" view (now rejected) of Gothic invasionism). He also accepts a Scandinavian influx in the latter part of the 1rst c. CE. There is sound archaeological evidence for it. And the words you have cited above refer to the situation which developed after that influx.****
I'll surmise another thing. The common language of much pre WWII archaeological research was German and since no one can read that these days, the archaeology of Scandinavia is a closed book to most researchers, and archaeologists like to keep presumed influences confined to areas within which they understand the research language.
Torsten