--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 6/28/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> > > > How would you account for the movement of Croats from Tanais
> > > > to Southern Slavland?
> > >
> > > GK: In the first place one cannot even prove that there was any
> > > such movement. The Bosporan inscription refers to an individual
> > > with a hellenized Iranic name. We have no other evidence of
> > > "Croats" in that area at that time (3rd c. AD).
>
> That Haplotype Ia (Tanais, Croatia, Scandinavia) and Ic (Tanais,
> Scandinavia) distribution has to be explained somehow.
>
> ****GK: Was is the standard explanation? Also something that
> happened 30,000 years ago?****
Founder effect. Expansion out of an Ice Age refuge in Croatia. And no
explanation for the present distribution. No link-up with events
documented in any other fashion. The scenario works of a sort for I1a
(Croatia, Tanais, Germanic lands) but not for I1c (Tanais, Germanic
lands). Check for yourself in the files.
> > GK: Golomb's interesting hypothesis has nothing to do with your
> > notion that Charudes=Croats= Slavs
>
>
>
> I never said it did. But it does presuppose an intermingling of
> Slav and Bastarnian speakers.
>
> ****GK: I don't see how that could have happened in the historical
> "north of the Carpathians" Croat areas prior to the arrival of the
> Slavs there (in the late 5th c. AD at the earliest).The only
> "problem" is that by then the Bastarnians were long gone... So the
> Iranic (or Turkic as an Iranic borrowing) explanation seems
> preferable to me.****
There goes Gol/a,b's theory.
Note that the kingdom of Vani would have spoken a language belonging
to the Zan (Mingrelian - Laz) group of Kartvelian.
>
> > I agree with him [Golomb GK)in positing the "Croat" phenomenon as
> > originating north of the Carpathians, but associate it with Avar
> > state-building.
>
> Proof?
>
> ****GK: Not as secure as the impossibility of the Snorri "out of
> the east" scenario, but it seems the best solution to me. Ptolemy
> knows no Croats, neither do any historians of the period prior to
> the Avar arrival in 558 AD.
Argumentum e silentio.
> Constantine speaks of them as moving in from the north in the 7th
> c. There are various "croatias" remanining there as late as the
> 10th and 11th cs. The names of the Croat chieftains could easily be
> Avar names. It's a good hypothesis. I'll switch it for a better one
> if and when it arrives.****
> >
> > > > were organized by the Avars along their northern borders (in
> > > > the Carpathians and beyond) against the looming Turkic threat.
> > >
> > > GK: Sometime in the 570's.
>
>
> > > > The leading elements were imported from the east and settled
> > > > among Slavs. Their ethnicity is open to debate: you can try
> > > > etymologizing the names of the rulers' ancestors from the
> > > > account in Constantine Porphyrogenitus.
> > >
> > > GK: (from memory) There were five names (3 "brothers" and two
> > > "sisters) None seemed particularly Slavic.
> >
> >
> > We've been there. I didn't make much headway with them.
> >
> > GK: Correction. FIVE brothers (Kluk, Lobel, Mukhlo, Kosjenc,
> > Horvat) The sisters were Tuga and Buga. I have a feeling one
> > might find Turkic meanings in some of these.
>
> The names look vaguely like those Slovenian words
> Joz^ef S^avli â" Matej Bor
> Unsere Vorfahren die Veneter
> use to 'prove' the Slavicness of the Veneti.
>
> ****GK: What are these Slovenian names?****
>
It was in my to-do list; I was going to add entries from Vasmer to
them, where such existed, to show their Common-Slavic-ness or not,
but perhaps I can get you to add East Slavic cognates to those you
recognize?
Joz^ef s^avli â" Matej Bor
Unsere Vorfahren die Veneter
pp. 40-42
'In Südtirol verdichten sich die wendisch-slowenischen Flur- und
Ortsnamen besonders im oberen Etschtal, d. i. in Vintschgau
(Windischgau) oberhalb von Meran.
[In Southern Tyrol the Wend - Slovenian field and setlement names get
particularly dense in the upper Adige valley, ie. in the Vintschgau
[Windisch-gau] above Merano.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karte_Vinschgau.png
Bereits in der Umgebung dieser Stadt, vor dem Eingang in den
Vintschgau, zeugen von den einstigen Wenden die Namen wie:
Perval, Perfl, Pirbl (preval â" der Sattel [saddle]);
Kanzen, Kanz, Konz, Kunz (konec â" das Talende [end (of the valley)]);
Troier (ladinisch troi, vom slowenischen utro â" die Trift [pasture]
oder vom Vieh festgetretener Boden);
Tel, Toll (dol â" engeres, kleines Tal [small narrow valley]);
Loch (log â" die Aue, niederer Wald, Schwemmland [meadow, underbrush,
floodland]);
Kuchelberg (kukla oder c^ukla â" groÃer, alleinstehender Fels [great
solitary rock]);
Lazins (lazne, laze Mz. â" im Abhang stehende Fläche, die mit der Haue
bearbeitet wird [level area on slope, worked with hoe]);
In der Laner (lanez^ â" verschneiter Kamm [snowed-over ridge]);
In der Gande (konta â" die Felsenkluft [rocky gorge]);
Gatsche (gac^e â" der Zwiesel[??]);
Taber (tabor â" des Feldlager, die Festung [encampment, fortress]
oder auch deber â" die Talschlucht [ravine]);
Pöntsch (pec^ â" die Felswand [rock wall]);
Marling (1290 Mernig, mernik â" im Gemäuer [in the walls]);
Ursinig (1380 Virsinic, vrs^ic^ â" der Höhepunkt eines Abhangs [peak
of slope]);
Tisens (1259 Tisana, tesna Mz. â" die Engen [narrows]);
Laas (loz^e, logje â" die Auen [meadows]);
Zocha (1580 Zouch, suha â" trockener Graben [dry ditch], der Wildbach
[torrent]),
Tamasseg (1560 Tamerseg, tamarc^ek, Diminutivform von tamar â" Obdach
[shelter], Sennhütte [sheepfold]);
Brizsche von 1311 (bris^c^e, Abk. von brdis^c^e â" die Anhöhen
[heights], die Ecken [corners]).
In Vintschgau oberhalb von Meran begegnen wir u. a. folgende Namen:
Laatsch (loc^e, loke â" die Talwiesen [valley meadows]),
Plaus (plave â" das Triftwasser [pasture water] oder
das Tal, wo man Holz weitertreibt [the valley from which wood is
transported further]);
Vöran (vereje, Abk. von medvereje â" die Hürde [pen]).
Tartsch (tamarc^, Diminutivform von tamar);
Tschars (c^eri â" die Klippen [rocks]),
Völan, ital. Foiana (poljana â" das Flachfeld [flat field]),
Vlatscher Berg 3257 m (von
vlac^iti â" schleppen [drag];
vlac^e, vlake â" die Heuschlitten [hay sled];
vlac^e â" der Schleppweg [drag path]);
Kortsch (koritca Mz. â" kleine FluÃkessel, Kolke [river vortex]);
Lana (plana â" ein vom Baumwuchs freier, grasiger Abhang [grassy slope
free of tree growth];
davon planina â" die Alpe [??]);
Matsch (moc^ila Mz. â" die Quellwiese [spring meadow], Feuchtwiese
[wet meadow]);
Mals (meli Mz. â" das Gerölle [scree], der Schutthang [scree slope]).
An der Südseite des Tales erhebt sich
der Ortler 3899 m (rt, ort â" ausgeprägter Kogel [??], die Landzunge
[spit of land]).
Am oberen Etsch öffnet sich westwärts der Graben namens
Rojen (roje â" kleiner Bach [small brook], Wasserrasten [??];
kärntnerslow. roja â" der Regenbach [rain brook]).
Der Ãbergang in das Inntal trägt den Namen
Reschen-Paà 1504 m, ital. Resia (rez^a â" der Rià [rift], die Spalte
[fissure]).
Ãstlich von Reschensee erhebt sich
der Rabenkogel (3391 m), dessen Bezeichnung von
rob, rab (o -> a), d. h. Rand [edge], Absturz [precipice], Felswand
[rock wall], bzw.
robje Mz. â" Felszacken [rocky peak], Klippen [rock], Felsen [rock],
abstammt und nicht mit gleichnamigen Vögeln in Verbindung steht.
Ein Rabenstein (1419 m) findet sich auch am Schluà des Passeiertales.
Von Bozen ausgehend gelangen wir in nordöstlicher Richtung in
das Eisacktal, ital. Isarco (izaro, jezernica â" der Bach mit Kolken
[brook with vortexes], der Seebach [lake brook]).
An der Ostseite erhebt sich die groÃe Felsmasse
des Schiern, ital. Sciliar, mit dem Gipfel
Petz (pec^ â" die Felswand [rock wall]).
Längs diesem Tal hinauf erscheint an derselben Seite das Grödnertal.
An seinem Eingang liegt die Ortschaft
Loien, heute Lajen (loje, poloje Mz. â" sanfter Hang [gentle slope],
die Lehne [rest?]).
Am Talende des Grödnertales befindet sich wiederum eine Ortschaft
namens
Plan und oberhalb davon die Gipfel:
Tschierspitzen 2592 m (c^eri Mz. â" scharfkantige Felsklippen
[sharp-edged rocks]),
Puez 2673 m (pec^) und
Sellajoch 2218 m (sedlo â" der Sattel [saddle]).
Auf der Nordseite des Grödnertales erhebt sich die
Raschötzer Alpe, ital. Rascieza, bis 2308 m Höhe (ras^ica â" glatte
Fläche [smooth plane area]);
vgl. lateinisch: rasilis â" glatt [smooth]).
Das nächste Seitental heiÃt Villnöstal, wo die Namen wie
Crnidoi (c^arni dol â" verteidigungsfähige Talenge [defensible
gorge]),
Got (kot â" die Ecke [edge]),
Gost (gozd â" der Wald [forest]),
Praprot (der Farn [ferns]),
Trebe (trebez^ â" die Ausrodung [cleared area])
auftauchen. Weiter, schon oberhalb von
Brixen (bris^c^e â" die Anhöhen [heights]),
erhebt sich der Berg
Plose 2514 m (poloz^e Mz. â" sanfter Hang [gentle slope]; wie auch
plaze Mz. â" die Schuttlawine [rocky avalanche]).'
Mz. = Mez^ica dialect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_dialects
'
Torsten