Re: Croats and Slavs (Was: Re: That old Ariovistus scenario.)

--- On Sun, 6/28/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > > How would you account for the movement of Croats from Tanais to

> > > Southern Slavland?

> >

> > GK: In the first place one cannot even prove that there was any

> > such movement. The Bosporan inscription refers to an individual

> > with a hellenized Iranic name. We have no other evidence of

> > "Croats" in that area at that time (3rd c. AD).

That Haplotype Ia (Tanais, Croatia, Scandinavia) and Ic (Tanais,

Scandinavia) distribution has to be explained somehow.

****GK: Was is the standard explanation? Also something that happened 30,000 years ago?****

GK: Golomb's interesting hypothesis has nothing to do with your

> notion that Charudes=Croats= Slavs

I never said it did. But it does presuppose an intermingling of Slav

and Bastarnian speakers.

****GK: I don't see how that could have happened in the historical "north of the Carpathians" Croat areas prior to the arrival of the Slavs there (in the late 5th c. AD at the earliest).The only "problem" is that by then the Bastarnians were long gone... So the Iranic (or Turkic as an Iranic borrowing) explanation seems preferable to me.****

> I agree with him [Golomb GK)in positing the "Croat" phenomenon as originating

> north of the Carpathians, but associate it with Avar state-

> building.

Proof?

****GK: Not as secure as the impossibility of the Snorri "out of the east" scenario, but it seems the best solution to me. Ptolemy knows no Croats, neither do any historians of the period prior to the Avar arrival in 558 AD. Constantine speaks of them as moving in from the north in the 7th c. There are various "croatias" remanining there as late as the 10th and 11th cs. The names of the Croat chieftains could easily be Avar names. It's a good hypothesis. I'll switch it for a better one if and when it arrives.****

>

> > > were organized by the Avars along their northern borders (in

> > > the Carpathians and beyond) against the looming Turkic threat.

>

> >

>

> > GK: Sometime in the 570's.

>

> >

>

> > > The leading elements were imported from the east and settled

> > > among Slavs. Their ethnicity is open to debate: you can try

> > > etymologizing the names of the rulers' ancestors from the

> > > account in Constantine Porphyrogenitus.

> >

> > GK: (from memory) There were five names (3 "brothers" and two

> > "sisters) None seemed particularly Slavic.

>

>

> We've been there. I didn't make much headway with them.

>

> GK: Correction. FIVE brothers (Kluk, Lobel, Mukhlo, Kosjenc,

> Horvat) The sisters were Tuga and Buga. I have a feeling one might

> find Turkic meanings in some of these.

The names look vaguely like those Slovenian words

Joz^ef S^avli — Matej Bor

Unsere Vorfahren die Veneter

use to 'prove' the Slavicness of the Veneti.

****GK: What are these Slovenian names?****