Re: That old Ariovistus scenario. Was: [tied] Re: That old Odin scen

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> Call it the Ariovistus (Harjagist-) scenario then. It's the same
> thing. Both are titles, not names.
>
> GK: Ariovistus was certainly a name for Caesar.

He didn't know any better.

****GK: Without Caesar you would know practically nothing of Ariovistus (:=))End of discussion since what follows is likely: did too- did not-- did too-- did not---****

> His title (since 59 BCE) was "rex".

Not to his men it wasn't.

****GK: How would one translate "rex" into 1rst c. BCE German? That's what his men would call him.*****

That was what the Romans called him. Besides the difference wasn't that great, cf dux/herizogo.
Check for yourself
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Ariovistus# Etymology


****GK: Most of this analysis supports the notion that "Ariovistus" was a name not a title. You'd better find a better source.****

(The citations which follow here are irrelevant since you've not made the major point. Fairly typical procedure on your part.)

>(GK No point in rehashing the Odin pseudo-history of Snorri Sturluson
> BTW.****

Not with you there ain't. I look forward to you actually refuting it.

****GK: It's been refuted a zillion times, and not only by me. Since you refused to accept this, while incapable of providing any new evidence on its behalf, you had to be stopped, and you were. All those interested in your endless repetitions of your refuted thesis can consult the cybalist archives.****

> (GK)The old idea that there were "Slavs" in 1rst c. BCE Przeworsk is
> untenable.

They would only have had to be there long enough, coming from the east, to join Ariovistus' campaign.

****GK: Where is your evidence that Slavs (as distinct from Baltoslavs) were an identifiable group in the time of Ariovistus?****

> I'm not sure you can speak of "Slavs" anywhere at that time. But if
> there already were some genuine proto-Slavs somewhere in 75-58 BCE
> it would be considerably east and north of Przeworsk (cf.
> Shchukin's excellent analyses).

Remind me?

Cf. http://www.krotov.info/history/09/schukin.html

> These protos would thus have borrowed the term for Germanics from
> "Venedic" intermediaries (if this hypothesis is correct). It would
> thus be not a direct but an indirect derivation, like the later
> "Vlach" via Gothic.

The Vlach term would be Bloch etc in Venetic transmission, if my suspicion of Venetic w- -> b- should be correct.

****GK: Nothing to do with my point since the Slavs got their "Vlachs" from the Goths.****

> > Whether it could have come to them from a Venetic/Venedic
> > expression for "Germans" (or "western neighbours") might be worth
> > investigating. Perhaps there is an analogy to the Germanic
> > "Wends" for Slavs, or "Vlachs" for Romanians etc. (to Slavic via
> > Gothic).
> > If one assumes that the Lusatian culture and offshoots were
> > basically Venetic/Venedic, and did with "Nemetes" what the early
> > Germanics did with the Celtic "Volcae", then the transmission
> > might have taken place within the Zarubinian culture period
> > (Zarubinians being Tacitus' migrant "Venedi" and prime
> > contributors to historical Slavic ethnogenesis. > >
>
> Seeing as the name Volcae fits into my whole Bolg- scheme I was
> wondering if they were not originally an ar-/ur- speaking coast
> people.
>
> How about the Nemetes being a subgroup under Venetic/Lusatian
> instead? Then as the Venetic (Wendisch) Nemetes became Germanified
> the name stuck. The fact that a majority of them emigrated under A.
> and only survived as scattered refugees in Denmark would help that
> transition a lot too.
>
> ****GK: What you call "Venetic" Ukrainian linguists refer to as
> "Illyrian" or "Celto-Illyrian" . There is an interesting study
> identifying a number of such "Illyrian" hydronyms in the Ros' river
> basin (south of Kyiv). They could be linked to the spread of the
> Zarubinian culture in the 3rd c. BCE And the possibly "Illyrian"
> ("Venetic"?) Zarubinians (Late Lusatian/Pomorian culture) were
> accompanied by Jastorf elements (their "Nemetes"?).

Should I get a Ukrainian dictionary now? Do you have examples of those names?

****GK: You can also get a lot of them from Trubachov, who ranges more widely than the study I mentioned. But you'd be better off in digesting Shchukin first****

> That's a possibility. Though the folk-etymology
> "speakers/non- speakers" seems much later, perhaps as late as the
> time of Cyril and Methodius.** **
>

The thing that impressed me in Vasmer was
Russ. dial. govorítI némo
"speak unclearly, also in a foreign language"

which I read as "speak 'nem'". Nemój etc don't have obvious relatives outside Slavic in my opinion.

Torsten