That old Ariovistus scenario. Was: [tied] Re: That old Odin scenario

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Forgetting that hopeless (whether old or new) Odin scenario, and
> > just concentrating on "Nemetes" as a possible source of the
> > Slavic "Nemtsi/Nimtsi" .
>
> Call it the Ariovistus (Harjagist-) scenario then. It's the same
> thing. Both are titles, not names.
>
> ****GK: Ariovistus was certainly a name for Caesar.

He didn't know any better.

> His title (since 59 BCE) was "rex".

Not to his men it wasn't. That was what the Romans called him. Besides the difference wasn't that great, cf dux/herizogo.
Check for yourself
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariovistus#Etymology
And cf.

de Vries
'herja schw. V. 'verheeren, plündern; krieg führen'
(< germ. *harjo:n), nisl. fär. norw. herja, nschw. härja, ndä. herje.
[wrong, Da. hærge]
— ae. herigan (ne. harry, harrow 'plündern'),
afr. urheria, as. ahd. herio:n, herro:n, mnl. heren, heriën, hergen; vgl. wgerm. göttinnenname Hariasa (...).
— vgl. Herjann und herr.

Herjann
- 1 m. 'beiname Odins', wohl als führer des wütenden heeres
(Falk NVA 1924 Nr. 10, 16).
— Gebildet aus herr mit dem suff. -ana (wie auch in dróttinn, þjóðann und im götter-namen Óðinn).
Genau zum worte Herjann stimmt gr. koíranos 'herrscher' < *korianos
(s. Bugge PBB 21, 1896, 422, denn wiewohl die suffix-form nicht genau
stimmt ... ist an der Verwandtschaft nicht zu rütteln; Flasdieck ... denkt an suffixablaut, bes. gall Pn. Coriono-totae
...
— 2 m. 'wolf' (poet.) eig. 'vernichter' ...
— vgl. herja.

...

herr
- 1 m.'heer; menge, volk', [army, crowd, people]
run. dä. harja (Vimose-kamm c. 250, ...),
run. schw. harija (Skåäng c. 500, ...); vgl.
run. da. hariso (s.d.), hariuha (Br. 57 aus Seeland c. 550, ...); nisl. her, fär. herur, nnorw. dä. her, nschw. här. [wrong, Da. hær]

— > finn. karja, wot. karja, estn. kari, liv. ko:r´a, ka:r´a 'rindviehherde' [cattle herder](...).

— got. harjis, ae. afr. here, as. heri m., ahd. hari, heri n.; vgl.
germ. VN. Harii und name einer göttin Hariasa (...), sowie
Harigasti auf Negau-helm.

— gr. koíranos 'heerführer',
koirómakhos; 'heerzug, im heere kämpfend',
gall. corio- 'krieger, heer', ["warrior, army"]
VN. Tricorii, Petrucorii 'mit drei, vier heerscharen',
mir. cuire (< *corio-) 'schar',
apers. ka:ra- 'heer',
asl. kara 'zank, streit', ["strife, conflict"]
lit. kãras, kãrè 'krieg', kãrias- 'heer',
apr. kargis (*karjas) 'heer, krieg' ["army, war"] (IEW 615).'

and, surprisingly:

Heinrich Werner
Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der Jenissej-Sprachen

'4kal´
1) 'Krieg';
2) 'Krieg führen';
mket., nket. 4ka:l´i / 4ka:l´e,
jug. 4kah:r,
kot. (C) hali ds.;
imb. (Ad) kal,
pump. (VW) karï 'Krieg'; vgl.
ar. (H) kel 'Heer' (kelbaxal´a 'ich führe Krieg');
nket., mket. 4ka:l´æs´an,,
jug. 4kah:ræ:san, 'um Krieg zu führen';
sket. dívaGal´ / dívGal´,
mket. díbgal´ 'ich / er führe Krieg',
Prät. dbíl´gal´ / dbíl´ïGal´ (3.1; 3.2);
mket. tkál´ibet,
nket., sket. tkál´ivet 'ich führe (stets) Krieg',
Prät. tkál´ol´bet (8.1);
jug. 1dibgar 'ich führe Krieg',
Prät. di4bih:rgar > di1bi:rgar;
(3.1; 3.2) t4kah:raget´ 'ich führe (stets) Krieg',
Prät. t4kah:r4oh:rget´ > t4kah:ro:rget´ (8.1);
kot. (C) halâkn, / hâlâkn, / halâkan, 'ich führe Krieg',
Prät. halolôkn,, Imp. ha-lâlc^ek! (5.1);
kot. (C) hali-hit 'Krieger';
D IM *kha?oLo 'Kieg führen', 'Krieg';
P(roto-)J(enisseisch) (S) *kâr1e ds.
...
kál´get (m, Pl. kál´dæn,) 'Krieger'
< sket. *kal´ 'Krieg' + 2kæ´?t 'Mensch';
nket., mket. 4ka:l´get / 4ka:l´iGet, Pl. 4ka:l´den,;
jug. 4kah:rget, Pl. 4kah:rd´en,;
pump. (VW) karïset, imb. (Ad) matr,
ar. (H) keln´a kekc^o,
kot. (H) berxen,
kot. (C) hali-hit ds.
...
kárej II (jug.) 'töten' (von jug. 4kah:r 'Krieg')'

and perhaps, a non-Grimmed word:

de Vries
karl m. 'mann', bes. 'alter mann'; untertan',
nisl. karl,
fär. kallur,
nnorw. kall, kar,
run. schw. karilR,
nschw. dä. karl.
[Sw. /kar/, Da. /kal/]
— > ae. carl 'mann', vgl.
ON. Carl(e)ton (Mawer 43);

> shetl. koll 'alter mann';
> orkn. karl 'männliche essbare krabbe' (Marwick 83);
> norm. ON. Calleville (Jakobsen DSt 1911, 67);
> finn. karilas 'schwacher greis'

(Karsten, Sv. bygd 1, 76; oder doch urspr. finnisch? Setälä FUF 13, 1913, 377);
[but apparently same declination as kuningas etc, ie. nom -s]

> lpN. galles, kaltes 'alter mann, ehemann' (...).

— ahd. karl 'mann, ehemann', daneben abl.
ae. ceorl 'freier mann der niedrigsten klasse' (ne. churl 'tölpel'),
mnd. kerle, mnl. kerle, kerel 'kerl, mann',
afr. zerl 'diener'.
— gr. géro:n 'greis',
ai. jarati 'lässt altern',
asl. z^ire^ti 'reifen',
arm. cer 'greis' (IEW 390).
— vgl. kella, kerling, kertir, korn, kartnagl, ko,r, ko,rtr und hrognkelsi.

Für das an. wort darf man als grundform *karlaz annehmen. Die run. schw. form. karilR weist dagegen auf *karilaz; das finn. karilas braucht nicht auf diese form zurückzugehen, weil das i svarabhakti-vokal sein könnte (s. Wiklund ANF 22, 1906, 79). Übrigens stimmt die reihe *karla, *karila auffällig zu *erla, *erila (vgl. jarl), dazu de Vries, ... .
— Das wort Karl ist auch PN., vgl. lat. Carolus (daraus wohl asl. kralI 'könig', Schwarz AfslPh 42, 1929, 302);
weiter noch Karli und die Zss. Karlsefni und Karlsho,fuð.
— Dazu Zs. karlsvipt und karlsyft f. 'männliche geschlechtslinie';
— svift gehört zu sif, also mit derselben anl. *swe- neben *se-, wie in sváss.'

> No point in rehashing the Odin pseudo-history of Snorri Sturluson
> BTW.****

Not with you there ain't. I look forward to you actually refuting it.

>
> > --- On Mon, 6/22/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Nemetes
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Niemcza
> > > > >
> > > > > That would make sense if the Nemetes had come all the way
> > > > > from Przeworsk-land with Ariovistus. The question is then:
> > > > > how close would the Slavs have to have been at the time A.
> > > > > left with them for that to be their designation for
> > > > > Germanic?
> >
> >
> > GK: A direct derivation of the Slavic term from the Caesar time
> > "Nemetes" hardly seems possible.
>
> Au contraire. It seems impossible to avoid.
> http://tinyurl. com/mr42x3
>
> ****GK: You're missing the point.

No, you are.

> The old idea that there were "Slavs" in 1rst c. BCE Przeworsk is
> untenable.

They would only have had to be there long enough, coming from the east, to join Ariovistus' campaign.

> I'm not sure you can speak of "Slavs" anywhere at that time. But if
> there already were some genuine proto-Slavs somewhere in 75-58 BCE
> it would be considerably east and north of Przeworsk (cf.
> Shchukin's excellent analyses).

Remind me?

> These protos would thus have borrowed the term for Germanics from
> "Venedic" intermediaries (if this hypothesis is correct). It would
> thus be not a direct but an indirect derivation, like the later
> "Vlach" via Gothic.****

The Vlach term would be Bloch etc in Venetic transmission, if my suspicion of Venetic w- -> b- should be correct.

> > Whether it could have come to them from a Venetic/Venedic
> > expression for "Germans" (or "western neighbours") might be worth
> > investigating. Perhaps there is an analogy to the Germanic
> > "Wends" for Slavs, or "Vlachs" for Romanians etc. (to Slavic via
> > Gothic).
> > If one assumes that the Lusatian culture and offshoots were
> > basically Venetic/Venedic, and did with "Nemetes" what the early
> > Germanics did with the Celtic "Volcae", then the transmission
> > might have taken place within the Zarubinian culture period
> > (Zarubinians being Tacitus' migrant "Venedi" and prime
> > contributors to historical Slavic ethnogenesis. > >
>
> Seeing as the name Volcae fits into my whole Bolg- scheme I was
> wondering if they were not originally an ar-/ur- speaking coast
> people.
>
> How about the Nemetes being a subgroup under Venetic/Lusatian
> instead? Then as the Venetic (Wendisch) Nemetes became Germanified
> the name stuck. The fact that a majority of them emigrated under A.
> and only survived as scattered refugees in Denmark would help that
> transition a lot too.
>
> ****GK: What you call "Venetic" Ukrainian linguists refer to as
> "Illyrian" or "Celto-Illyrian". There is an interesting study
> identifying a number of such "Illyrian" hydronyms in the Ros' river
> basin (south of Kyiv). They could be linked to the spread of the
> Zarubinian culture in the 3rd c. BCE And the possibly "Illyrian"
> ("Venetic"?) Zarubinians (Late Lusatian/Pomorian culture) were
> accompanied by Jastorf elements (their "Nemetes"?).

Should I get a Ukrainian dictionary now? Do you have examples of those names?

> That's a possibility. Though the folk-etymology
> "speakers/non-speakers" seems much later, perhaps as late as the
> time of Cyril and Methodius.****
>

The thing that impressed me in Vasmer was
Russ. dial. govorítI némo
"speak unclearly, also in a foreign language"

which I read as "speak 'nem'". Nemój etc don't have obvious relatives outside Slavic in my opinion.


Torsten