Re: That old Odin scenario ...

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> Forgetting that hopeless (whether old or new) Odin scenario, and
> just concentrating on "Nemetes" as a possible source of the Slavic
> "Nemtsi/Nimtsi".

Call it the Ariovistus (Harjagist-) scenario then. It's the same thing. Both are titles, not names.

> --- On Mon, 6/22/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > BTW
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niemcza
> > > >
> > > > That would make sense if the Nemetes had come all the way
> > > > from Przeworsk-land with Ariovistus. The question is then:
> > > > how close would the Slavs have to have been at the time A.
> > > > left with them for that to be their designation for Germanic?
>
>
> ****GK: A direct derivation of the Slavic term from the Caesar time
> "Nemetes" hardly seems possible.

Au contraire. It seems impossible to avoid.
http://tinyurl.com/mr42x3

> Whether it could have come to them from a Venetic/Venedic
> expression for "Germans" (or "western neighbours") might be worth
> investigating. Perhaps there is an analogy to the Germanic "Wends"
> for Slavs, or "Vlachs" for Romanians etc. (to Slavic via Gothic).
> If one assumes that the Lusatian culture and offshoots were
> basically Venetic/Venedic, and did with "Nemetes" what the early
> Germanics did with the Celtic "Volcae", then the transmission might
> have taken place within the Zarubinian culture period (Zarubinians
> being Tacitus' migrant "Venedi" and prime contributors to
> historical Slavic ethnogenesis.****
> >

Seeing as the name Volcae fits into my whole Bolg- scheme I was wondering if they were not originally an ar-/ur- speaking coast people.

How about the Nemetes being a subgroup under Venetic/Lusatian instead? Then as the Venetic (Wendisch) Nemetes became Germanified the name stuck. The fact that a majority of them emigrated under A. and only survived as scattered refugees in Denmark would help that transition a lot too.

> > It's possible to argue for 'nemeton' being of originally Venetic,
> > not Celtic origin, cf the geographical spread:
> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Nemeton
> > http://www.roman- britain.org/ nemeton.htm
> > and perhaps
> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Nantes
> > (the site of Caesar's Gallic Veneti)
> >
> > The -et- ethnonym suffix would place the name with the *-iþi names
> > http://tinyurl. com/5udkqz
>
> Håndbog i danske stednavne
>
> 'LØSE.
> 36. Niløse s. Merløse h. *1231 Niløsworæ, c. 1370 Nyløsæ. Forleddet
> er mul. adj. ny. Hald Um p. 86.
>
> TOFT
> 102. Nimtofte s. Djurs Nørre h. 1426 Nimtoft.
> Mul. adj. ny + he:m (Hald Um p. 86 i forbindelse med Nim, jfr. DS
> XII, 214). Vokalen y er afrundet til i på grund af stillingen foran
> m.
> [Poss adj ny "new" + he:m "home" (Hald Um p. 86 in conn. w. Nim,
> cf. DS XII, 214). The vowel y is unrounded to i because of the
> position before m.]
> UM. 107.
>
> Nim s. og h. *1231 Nymheret. Se reg. E: 69.
> Har været tolket af adj. ny, hvilket betvivles af Hald Um p. 86.
> Han ser i forleddet et glda. *ni: af uvis opr. som findes fx i
> Niløse.
> [Has been interpreted as from adj. ny "new" which is doubted by
> Hald Um p.86. He sees in the first element an ODa. *ni: of
> uncertain origin which eg. is found in Niløse.]
> Se reg. A: LØSE 36.
>
> E
> Syssel- og herredsnavne
>
> 69. Nim h. *1231 Nymheret.
> Er tolket af adj. ny eller af en stamme *ni: af uvis opr., som
> menes at indgå i Niløse, Merløse h. *1231 Niløsworæ og måske i nr.
> 70.
> [Has been interpreted as from the adj ny "new" or from a stem *ni:
> of uncertain org. thought to appear in Niløse, Merløse h. *1231
> Niløsworæ and perhaps also in no. 70]
> Se Hald Um p. 86. DS XII, 214.
>
> 70. Ning h. *1231 Ninggeheret.
> Opkaldt med suffiks -ing efter et ukendt sted ved navn *Ni, se
> under nr. 69.
> [Named with suffix -ing after an unknown place named *Ni, see under
> no. 69.
> DS XII, 52.'
>
> My guess: <- *Nim-inga-
>
> Vasmer
> némets G. -mtsa 'Deutscher',
> aruss. ne^mIcI, ne^mIc^inU 'Germane, jeder Fremde'
> (Srezn. Wb. 2, 486ff., F.Braun Germanica-Sievers 679ff.),
> mgriech. Nemítzoi pl. 'Deutsche' (Konst. Porph. De cerim. 2, 398,
> s. Thomson Ursprung 120),
> bulg. né^mec 'Deutscher', ne^méc 'Stummer' (Mladenov 362),
> skr. nijèmac 'Deutscher, Stummer',
> sloven. némec 'Stummer; Nordwind; Art Hafer',
> c^ech. ne^mec 'Deutscher',
> slk. nemec, poln. niemiec, osorb. ne^mc, nsorb. nimc.
>
> || Ursl. *ne^mUcI 'Fremder' gehört zu ne^mU 'stumm' (s. nemój).
> Vgl.
> dial. govorítI némo 'undeutlich, auch in e. fremden Sprache
> sprechen', Vjatka (Vasn. 313),
> némc^ik 'kleines, noch nicht sprechendes Kind', Smol. (Dobrov.),
> nemkó 'stummer Mensch', Arch. (Podv.),
> nemtýrI, nemtirá 'undeutlich sprechender Mensch, Stammler', Vjatka
> (Vasn.),
> aruss. Jugra z^e ljudIje jestI jazykU ne^mU 'ein fremdes (stummes)
> Volk' (Laurent. Chron. a. 1096),
> griech. oúth Hell`as oút` áglo:ssos gai~a (Soph. Trach. 1096),
> s. Grünenthal Zeitschr. 13, 342, Archiv 39, 290ff.,42, 318,
> Ul/aszyn Zeitschr. 6, 369 ff., W. Schulze KZ. 50, 129, wo
> begriffliche Parallelen.
> Mit dem Namen der westgerm. Nemetes (Plin., Tacitus, s. Much bei
> Hoops Reall. 3, 301 ff.) bei Speier hat slav. ne^mUcI aus
> lautlichen und geographischen Gründen nicht das geringste zu tun
> (gegen ... . Verfehlt ist auch die Annahme einer Bed. 'Nomade' und
> Verwandtschaft mit
> griech. némo: 'weide',
> nomé: 'Weideplatz' ,
> nomás 'Nomade',
> némos 'Wald',
> lat. nemus, -oris 'Hain' (gegen ... .).
> ...
> Zu ne^mUcU gehört
> aruss. nem(U)c^ic^i pl. Smol. Urk. 1223 (Nap. 425) mehrfach.
>
> ...
>
> nemój 'stumm, sprachlos',
> nem, nemá, némo, dial. 'stammelnd', Vologda, Vjatka (Grünenthal s.
> unten),
> ukr. nimýj, aruss. abulg. ne^mU álalos (Ostrom., Supr.),
> bulg. ne^m,
> skr. n`ìjem, nêm, f. néma, n. némo,
> sloven. nêm, f. néma 'stumm, dumm',
> c^ech. ne^mý, slk. nemý, poln. niemy, osorb. nsorb. ne^my.
>
> || Urspr. 'stammelnd', dissimiliert aus *me^mU, vgl.
> lett. m>ems 'stumm", me,mulis 'Stotterer', memers dass.,
> wie nhd. mummeln, engl. mumble 'stammeln', schwed. mimra 'die
> Lippen bewegen',
> s. Mi KW. 215, W. Schulze KZ. 50, 129, M.-Endz. 2, 6l5, Grünenthal
> Archiv 39, 290ff., Petersson Vgl. sl. Wortst. 50.
> Sehr fragwürdig ist der Vergleich mit ahd. neiman 'loqui', mhd.
> beneimen 'bestimmen' (Wiedemann BB. 28, 54ff., dagegen Petersson),
> abzulehnen auch die Auffassung als ne^- und -UmI (vozImu, vzjatI)
> wie ne pojmú (Mikkola RFV. 48, 270).'
>
> So it seems it's *nem-et-, of which the first element was an adj.
> That fits in with the Danish place names (Niløse is on Sjælland,
> the rest on Djursland in Jutland or just south of it), and
> presumably British Nympton.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Nemeton
>

It seems the Slavic suffix -ets corresponds to Venetic -e:t-. I read somewhere someone claiming the frequent settlement suffix -(w)its(a) being from PIE *weik^- "settlement", but that can't be so directly. What's the official story on Slavic *-ets and *-(w)its(a)?


Torsten