Re: More on dump etc.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 5.
> > > umpe 'closed, closed state' FP
> > > ?[ Finn. umpi 'closed state':
> > > ummessa silmin, silmät ummessa 'with closed eyes',
> > > tie on ummessa 'the road is snowed under';
> > > Estonian umbe 'closed, inaccessible, unbroken (of road), clogged,
> > > not ready, opaque, incomprehensible',
> > > umb, umbes 'quite, completely, over and over' |
> > >
> >
> > The SSA gives this origin for...
> > umpi - enclosed
> > ympäri - all around (lative case)
> > ympyrä - hoop, ring,
> >
> > < germ. *umbi
> >
> > Peter P
> >
>
> How about instead > Gmc. *umbi? As far as I understand, the Finnish word is a noun,

I would say a stem. Umpi is not a word by itself. However it is quite productive. As an adverb it declines quite nicely. There is a noun, umpio - enclosure, and a verb, umpioda - to enclose, also many compounds with umpi- as the first element.

Ympyrä is a noun.
Ympäri - (extending) to all around, is now an adverb, because it appears in the lative adverbial case, now extinct as a true case.

A list of Finnish adverbial cases here...
http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suomi/sijat/sijatadverbien.html

>the Estonian one an adjective, the rest are adverbs (some arguably on a possible path to becoming a postposition), the Gmc. (and its other IE cognates) are not nouns, but prepositions. Now you can derive an adverb/pre/postposition from a noun, but not the other way round, in other words, those languages which have the noun must be the donor.
>
>
> Torsten
>

In English it's not that difficult to derive a noun from a preposition. "He quickly learned the ins and outs or posting on Cybalist".

To me this is interesting stuff. I wonder if there wouldn't possibly be some better responses at the Uralica Group, even though it's much smaller?

Peter