--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> > On 2008-02-03 20:46, george knysh wrote:
> >
> > > The favourite interpretation of "strava" is that it refers to
> > > some sort of foodfest (indeed some linguists thought the word
> > > was Slavic). I wonder. The activities described by Jordanes
> > > need not indicate a meal, but something else entirely. Any
> > > chance that this ordanes "strava" is related to stra:va above?
> >
> > Slavic *sU-trava 'meal' can be ruled out definitely. The yers
> > were certainly full vowels in the 5th century and would
> > not have been dropped by any foreign borrowers.
> >
> > It can't be related to any of those *str(a)iB- words just
> > discussed, since PGmc. *i, *ei, or *ai wouldn't be reflected as
> > anything resembling "a" in Gothic. The word might be Hunnish (if
> > "Hunnish" means anything in linguistic terms), but perhaps the
> > most reasonable etymology of <straua> is a Gothic one, referring
> > to the verb <straujan> 'strew, cover' (Lat. struo: is from the
> > same root). What they covered the tumulus with is anyone's guess,
> > any kind of ceremonial decoration would fit the bill; some
> > interpreters suggest that it was a funeral pyre.
> >
> > Piotr
>
> ****GK: Jordanes' text is not easy by any means. He is
> describing a series of ritual acts, allegedly
> performed by Huns only. He mentions (1)a silk tent on
> a plain, where Attila's body lay in state. He then
> mentions (2)a tumulus, which is NOT identical to the
> spot where Attila was eventually secretly buried.He
> finally mentions (3)the burial spot, Attila's three
> coffins (what that means I don't know), and various
> objects buried with the warlord. Now the "strava"
> ritual is connected with (2). The tumulus could have
> been some commemorative kurgan, either created for the
> occasion, or already there, and having royal/sacral
> connotation. We don't really know. What seems
> important to determine with respect to the "strava"
> ritual is the meaning of Jordanes' "commessatio
> ingens", which Mierow has translated as "intense
> revelling". What does "commessatio" actually mean? I
> have not found it in my Oxford Dictionary of Classical
> Latin, nor in my admittedly incomplete Dictionary of
> mediaeval Latin. But one on-line dictionary defines it
> as "eating together",i.e. we are back to some sort of
> wake or ritual common feast around a tumulus
> symbolizing the resting place of the dead monarch...
> What kind of "cover" (Gothic or Romance) could be
> involved? I've never heard of such a ritual. But a
> feast is another matter,were it not for the linguistic
> difficulties. Jordanes, a Romanized Goth was writing
> in 552, perhaps quoting Cassiodorus,perhaps someone
> else, perhaps speaking for himself. Might Torsten's
> query ("how do we know what transpired in a Gothic
> borrowing from Slavic?") provide an answer? "Cover"
> just doesn't seem to cut it, somehow, funeral pyre or
> whatever (or piles of swords on the mound)...Finally,
> is there any way "strava" could refer to some Turkic
> root? Somehow I doubt that too.****
I might have found it. Assuming a/u 'ablaut', we might compare it with
Ernout-Meillet:
'struo:, -is, -xi:, -ctum, -ere:
disposer en piles, "empiler" (des matériaux), "entasser, dresser",
s. arbo:re:s in pyram (en particulier "dresser une table"), "construire, bâtir" (sens propre et figuré):
templa saxo structa uetusto Vg.3,84; sycophantias struere Pl., Asin. 71, "lever"; cf. Lex XII Tab.1,2 si caluitur pedemue struit.
- Ancien, usuel, classique. Celt.: gail. ystryw.
Dérivés et composés: strue:s, -is f.: pile; en particulier, dans la l. réligieuse, sorte de gâteau:
- genera liborum erant, digitorum coniunctorum similia, qui continebantur in transuersum superiecta panicula, P.F.409,2.
A ce sens se rattache le composé struferta:rii:, cité par P.F.377,2 -os dicebant qui quaedam sacrificia ad arbores fulguritas faciebant, a ferto scilicet quodam sacrificii genere;
strui:x, -i:cis f.: -es dicebant omnium rerum instructiones, P.F.409,5. Rare et archaïque (Liv. Andr., Naev.);
stru:ctio: (postclass.);
stru:ctor (class., mais technique; sur l'u:, v. Gell. 12,3,4): 1° constructeur (d'où "maçon, charpentier"); 2° celui qui dresse la table s.v. Rich, s.u.); structilis (postclass.);
structo:rius (Tert.);
structus, -u:s m.(Arn.); structu:ra: construction, structure (class.); maçonnerie (v.Rich, s.u.);
stru:mentum (Tert.), refait sur i:nstru:mentum.
ad-struo:: construire à coté, bâtir en outre; d'où à l'époque imp, , "ajouter".
A basse époque, employé pour affirmo:, cf. Comm. Bern. Lucan. 7,447 adstruit deos non curare terram; adstructio:, -tor;
circum-, co:n-, de:- M.L.2606, britt. distryw, ex-, ob-, per-, prae-, sub-struo: dans lesquels le préverbe ne fait que préciser l'idée verbale et qui peuvent à leur tour avoir des dérivés. Certains de ces dérivés ont servi à traduire des termes grecs; ainsi co:nstructio: (Priscien) traduit súntawis, et co:nstruendum a passé avec ce sens en britt. cystrawen.
A noter le sens spécial pris par instruo:. D'expressions comme 'i. me:nsas', "dresser des tables" on est passé à 'i. conui:uium' "garnir un banquet", et i:nstruere est arrivé à signifier "fournir, équiper", d'où 'i. alqm alqa: re:' "instruire quelqu'un de quelque chose", M.L.4472;
i:nstructus "équipé, muni" et "instruit",
i:nstructio:.
Le subst. i:nstru:mentum a désigné "ce qui sert à équiper, à garnir; agrès, équipement; mobilier; outil(s)", M.L.4473.
Celt. : britt. ystryw, irl. instrumint.
Pour industrius, v. ce mot.
Les formes struo: et strue:s montrent que la gutturale de struxi:, structus est secondaire, comme dans ui:xi:, ui:ïctus, en face de ui:uo:.
On peut donc rapprocher le groupe de sterno: (v. ce mot). Dans l'ombr. struçla (struhçla), strusla, au sens de strue:s, -çla- est un suffixe (cf. lat. struicula).'
Note especially
strue:s "pile; type of (sacrificial) cake",
instruo: "setting a table (for a sacrificial meal?)"
cf. the Roman rite described in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48817
Further
'industria, -ae f.: zèle, activité; pl. concret industriae "efforts"; souvent employé à l'abl. industria: (avec ou sans ex, de:) "de propos délibéré, à dessein", et aussi à l'acc. avec ob: ob industriam.
- Ancien (Enn. Pl. ), classique, mais rare, surtout à l'époque impériale.
industrius: zélé, actif, attentif, etc. (joint à gna:uus par Cic. Verr. 2,3,21,53, à, a:cer Tusc. 5,20, 57, opponsé à igna:uus Tac . A. 12, 12; industrie: est joint à di:ligenter par Cés. B. G. 7 , (60) ;
industrio:sus; industrior, -a:ris (b.lat.).
Les anciens avaient déjà reconnu dans industrius un composé, dont la forme ancienne indostruus (l. sans doute endo-) est donnée par P..F. 94, 15 qui la glose 'quasi qui, quicquid ageret, intro strueret et studeret domi'; pour le sens de struere, cf. Caton, Or. inc. 19: 'iure, rius, libertate, republica communiter uti oportet; gloria atque honore, quomodo sibi quisque struxit'. Cette explication a souvent été considérée comme une étymologie populaire, à. tort sans doute. M. J.B.Hofmann l'a défendue en rappelant homér. bussodomeúo:n, cité par Bréal, Essai de sémantique, P.145; et M.Benveniste, R.Phil. XXII 1948, p. 117, l'a confirmée en montrant que industria a bien originellement le sens de "activité secrète", industrius celui de "qui machine secrètement", et il est tenté d'y voir un "calque sémantique" de bussodomeúo:n. La substitution de -ius à -uus serait due à l'influence du groupe des adjectifs en -ius (cf. glo:ria, inglo:rius; iniu:ria, iniu:rius , etc.).'
Also:
straua (straba):
1° trophée (Lact. ad Stat. Theb. 12, 62);
2° tumulus, sepulcrum (Gloss.).
Mot de très basse latinité, germanique.'
Torsten