--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:
>
>
> A pre-(not Proto-)Gmc double root *skran,W-/*skran,gW- (not too
> unlikely) would (might?) produce Gmc skrov-/skronk-.
> But to get the Bornholmsk, French etc, we'd need something like
> *(s)kort(s)-/*(s)korl-.
> I can't get the thought out of my head that it might be related
> somehow to the Uralic *sose- (*sase-) root by cluster reduction,
> which would be what Uralic does.
>
> Is there any particular reasion why the Uralic s´, I think it is,
> which so weirdly turns into s-, t-, l- wasn't a cluster instead, say
> *skr-/*str-?
>
> Torsten
>
> ======
>
> The exact nature of the opposition between proto-Uralic *s and *s'
> is not clear to me.
> The first point is it's standard PU *s that has this s / t / l / y
> alternation,
> whereas *s' is usually stable as /s/ or /s'/ or the like.
Right. My mistake.
> Maybe this ultimately reflects a contrast between *z and *s > PU *s
> and *s?
> (glottalized) > PU *s'.
> but this is only the beginning of a guess...
> I don't have a good deal of clean examples.
Here's something that should be an example.
UEW
'sitta
'Dreck, Scheiße, Kot, Mist; seine Notdurft verrichten, scheißen' U
Finn. (dial.) sitta 'Kacke, Dreck, Auswurf
(? > lapp.
L siksta, sikta 'die Losung, der Kot des Rentiers im Sommer'),
(dial.) sittu- 'kacken, sich ausleeren, beschmutzen',
(SKES) dial. sitti 'sontiainen; Mistkäfer, Roßkäfer; pieni kala;
kleiner Fisch';
est. sitt (Gen. sita) 'Kot, Dreck, Mist, Dünger; ein Nichts, Bagatelle',
sitta- 'düngen', ära sitta- 'beschmutzen',
sitti-, sittu- 'misten, seine Notdurft verrichten',
sitik, sitike, sitikas 'Mistkäfer' |
wotj.
S K G sit' 'Dreck, Kot (S K G), Mist (S K)',
S sit'- 'die Notdurft verrichten, scheißen',
S K sit'an 'Arsch, After' |
syrj. S P PO sit 'Kot (S P PO), Dreck, Mist, Scheiße (S P)'
(> ostj. Vj. söt 'Kot, Mist des Bären (hart)'),
S sitan, P sita:n 'Gesäß, der Hintere, After'
|| sam.
twg. t'i?, t'î? 'Unrat', t'idi?- 'seine Notdurft verrichten';
selk. (Erd.)
Ta. tüt 'Mist, Kehricht; Kot, Exkremente',
Ta. B tyt, Ke. tytti 'Kot, Unrat',
N tyde- 'stinken';
kam. thü`d 'Unrat', ty`, tu` 'Scheiße; Floh, Käfer'.
Die Herleitung von lapp. siksta, sikta aus dem Finn. ist aus
lautlichen Gründen unsicher, da die Substitution von finn. tt durch
lapp., kt, kst ungewöhnlich ist.
Im Wotj. ist t' im Auslaut unter dem Einfluß des vorangehenden i oder
des geschwundenen palatalen Vokals (*e oder *i) aus früherem *t
entstanden.
Nomen-verbum.'
(Da. skidtfisk "fish of species unsuitable for human consumption")
The impression I get is that while Proto-Uralic, Proto-Yeniseian.
Proto-Altaic were getting their initial clusters reduced, some distant
relative(s) of them in Europe wasn't, and it/they were the
ar-/ur-languages and/or the language of geminates, which later became
a substrate for Germanic.
Or, Proto-Uralic *s and *s´ should change places and the *s´ (today's
*s) became *s^ -> *sk- in Germanic.
Torsten