From: Arnaud Fournet
Message: 61434
Date: 2008-11-06
----- Original Message -----
From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> >
> > Yes and no, it seems.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plough#Etymology
> >
> > Torsten
> >
> ==========
>
> About the hypothesis that NWB reflex for PIE *Bh as *ph,
>
> Apart from *bhlog > NWB pHlog- > Germanic plog-
That one stinks: pliny says the plough was 'invented' in Raetia. They
didn't speak NWB.
=======
I think this must make M. Knysh smile,
this time the Roman Authors are right, when it supports your opinion
and they are wrong, when it does not.
Rumsfeldesque again !
What are the exact words of Pliny about "plough" ?
A.
============
> I got two other proposals :
>
> pig < ME pigge < NWB Phug-i < PIE *bhug 'male, buck'
> pit < OE pytt < NWB Phuth-i < PIE *bhudh-om
>
> I guess the first idea will be more acceptable to M. Mc Scott than
> my previous suggestion it's a Tibetan LW.
> As regards the second one, it seems to me that West Germanic *put
> could be from NWB *Phuth instead of being a Latin LW of Put-eus.
> A substrate word from NWB seems at least as acceptable as a Latin
> LW for West Germanic.
>
> What do you think ?
=======
p/b alternation exists in the NWB words.
T.
=========
This might result from a mixture of
truly NWB words with *pH
and Celtic words with *b
much like
Latin had f/b
when other Italic had only f
This is like saying that LAtin had b/f alternation
because of ruber / rufus
Therefore I disagree with your statement.
NWB must have a clean phonological perimeter
otherwise it's uncontrollable fancy.
I stick to
PIE voiced > NWB voiced
PIE voiced aspirate > NWB voiceless aspirate
PIE voiceless > NWB voiceless
It seems to fit non-Germanic words in west-Germanic very well.
And it's coherent with Italo-Celtic
as probably NWB was at least areally if not genetically close to
Italo-Celtic.
Arnaud
======
Also check out the corresponding p/b (and also p/f) alternation in
substrate words in Jysk
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/32699
Torsten
========
These few words showing p/b alternation look terribly expressive :
boast, gossip, obese, stare, gulp down.
A.
===========