Re: Vandals

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 8/24/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic language, so
> > > > > they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > >
> > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know
> > > > nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that they lived in
> > > > the eastern part of the later Germania.
> >
> > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals is
> the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former (NH IV.99)
> the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes "quorum pars
> Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones". According to the latter
> (Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as their own
> in "carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that the designation
> (Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et antiqua" Germanic
> "nomina". As we know, Tacitus also made a clear distinction between
> Vandals and Venedi.
> >
>
> That's not quite accurate.
>
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/g01000.htm
>
> 'Celebrant carminibus antiquis (quod unum apud illos memoriae et
> annalium genus est) Tuisconem deum terra editum, et filium Mannum,
> originem gentis conditoresque. Manno tres filios assignant, e quorum
> nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii Hermiones, ceteri
> Istaevones vocentur. Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, plures
> deo ortos pluresque gentis appellationes, Marsos, Gambrivios,
> Suevos, Vandalios, affirmant; eaque vera et antiqua nomina. Ceterum
> Germaniae vocabulum recens et nuper additum; quoniam, qui primi
> Rhenum transgressi Gallos expulerint, ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani
> vocati sint: ita nationis nomen, non gentis evaluisse paulatim, ut
> omnes primum a victore ob metum, mox a se ipsis invento nomine
> Germani vocarentur.'
>
> ****GK: See below for what Tacitus is really recording.****
>
> 'In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording
> the past,
>
> ****GK: Note: "ancient songs" as "their only way". There is no
> other way.***
>
> they celebrate an earth-born god, Tuisco, and his son
> Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus
> they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast
> tribes are called Ingævones; those of the interior, Herminones; all
> the rest, Istævones.
>
> ****GK: We thus know that these "ancient songs" mention Tuisco,
> Mannus, and the three sons. It is unclear (though possible) whether
> the theory of Mannus-> I,H,I is an actual song or the
> interpretation of a song, or of a few songs in which these names
> appear.*****
>
> Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity,
>
> ****GK: Very impoortant point. Tacitus is not saying that these
> "some" are inventing antiquity for their names, but rather using
> these as an alternate explanation of things Germanic, precisely
> because the names are ancient. And they are ancient because they
> appear in "ancient songs" ("their only way of remembering or
> recording the past")****

No, that is conjecture, says Tacitus. Another way of knowing that am
ethnonym is ancient is that it doesn't conform to and make sense in
the language which uses it.

> assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation
> several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii, and that
> these are genuine old names. The name Germany, on the other hand,
> they say, is modern and newly introduced,
>
> ****GK: Presumably it does not appear in any "ancient songs"...****

The name was applied a few generations before Tacitus' time which
would be well-known to his informants.

> from the fact that the tribes
> which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now
> called Tungrians,

Turingi.

> were then called Germans. Thus what was the name
> of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called
> themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the
> conquerors had first employed to inspire terror.'
>
> In other words, there are two schools of thought among the Germani.
> According to one, the 'Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii' are not
> part of the Germani,
>
> ****GK: Typical Torsten non-sequitur. They would in fact, according

to one view, be listed among descendants of the three sons of
Mannus("the coast tribes" + "those of the interior" + "the rest"): for
instance, Pliny accessed a source where the Suevi were Hermiones...*****

Nope. Argumentum e nihilo. The fact that Pliny finds someone who
thinks the Suevi were Hermiones does not mean that everybody of the
Germania Parva school thinks that.

> according to the other, they are.
>
> ****GK: The dispute among these views is not about whether tribe or
> complex of tribes A,B, or C is or is not "Germanic", but whether it
> descends or does not descend directly from the god...*****

Same thing. Whichever tribe descends from Tuisco is Germanic.
Whichever tribe doesn't, isn't.

> We might call them
> Germania Parva and Germania Magna. That fits my contention that all
> present Germanic languages descend from Przeworsk-talk, those other
> tribes would have spoken para-Germanic, or something even further
> afield.
>
>
> ****GK: This of course has nothing to do with Tacitus, but is a
> "ceterum censeo" para-Snorrist incantation, as is usual for
> Torsten.****

The fact that Tacitus' account matches my theory is a fact about
Tacitus' account. The above is another papal bull from George.


Torsten