--- On Sun, 8/24/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic language, so
> > > > they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > >
> > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know nothing,
> > > is classed as East Germanic, is that they lived in the eastern
> > > part of the later Germania.
>
> GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals is
the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former (NH IV.99)
the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes "quorum pars
Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones". According to the latter
(Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as their own in
"carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that the designation
(Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et antiqua" Germanic "nomina".
As we know, Tacitus also made a clear distinction between Vandals and
Venedi.
>
That's not quite accurate.
http://www.sacred- texts.com/ cla/tac/g01000. htm
'Celebrant carminibus antiquis (quod unum apud illos memoriae et
annalium genus est) Tuisconem deum terra editum, et filium Mannum,
originem gentis conditoresque. Manno tres filios assignant, e quorum
nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii Hermiones, ceteri
Istaevones vocentur. Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, plures
deo ortos pluresque gentis appellationes, Marsos, Gambrivios, Suevos,
Vandalios, affirmant; eaque vera et antiqua nomina. Ceterum Germaniae
vocabulum recens et nuper additum; quoniam, qui primi Rhenum
transgressi Gallos expulerint, ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani vocati
sint: ita nationis nomen, non gentis evaluisse paulatim, ut omnes
primum a victore ob metum, mox a se ipsis invento nomine Germani
vocarentur.'
****GK: See below for what Tacitus is really recording.****
'In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording
the past,
****GK: Note: "ancient songs" as "their only way". There is no other way.***
they celebrate an earth-born god, Tuisco, and his son
Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they
assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are
called Ingævones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest,
Istævones.
****GK: We thus know that these "ancient songs" mention Tuisco, Mannus, and the three sons. It is unclear (though possible) whether the theory of Mannus-> I,H,I is an actual song or the interpretation of a song, or of a few songs in which these names appear.*****
Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by
antiquity,
****GK: Very impoortant point. Tacitus is not saying that these "some" are inventing antiquity for their names, but rather using these as an alternate explanation of things Germanic, precisely because the names are ancient. And they are ancient because they appear in "ancient songs" ("their only way of remembering or recording
the past")****
assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation
several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii, and that
these are genuine old names. The name Germany, on the other hand, they
say, is modern and newly introduced,
****GK: Presumably it does not appear in any "ancient songs"...****
from the fact that the tribes
which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now
called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of
a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called
themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors
had first employed to inspire terror.'
In other words, there are two schools of thought among the Germani.
According to one, the 'Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii' are not part
of the Germani,
****GK: Typical Torsten non-sequitur. They would in fact, according to one view, be listed among descendants of the three sons of Mannus("the coast tribes" + "those of the interior" + "the rest"): for instance, Pliny accessed a source where the Suevi were Hermiones...*****
according to the other, they are.
****GK: The dispute among these views is not about whether tribe or complex of tribes A,B, or C is or is not "Germanic", but whether it descends or does not descend directly from the god...*****
We might call them
Germania Parva and Germania Magna. That fits my contention that all
present Germanic languages descend from Przeworsk-talk, those other
tribes would have spoken para-Germanic, or something even further afield.
****GK: This of course has nothing to do with Tacitus, but is a "ceterum censeo" para-Snorrist incantation, as is usual for Torsten.****