Re: Sin once more

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "indravayu" <sonno3@...> wrote:

>
>
> > > [in fact,
> > > the Irish migration legends are for the most part medieval
> > > literary inventions based on Continental pseudo-histories -
> > > anyone who would treat them as genuine folk memory is out of
> > > their mind!
> >
> > I must be out of my mind.
>
> You don't have to tell me twice,
>
>
> > > We can easily detect the trail of transmission from early
> > > medieval Spanish authors such as Isidore and Orosius to the
> > > Irish authors who compiled books such as the Lebor Gabala Erenn]
> >
> > I can easily detect the myth of Napoleon in 19th century
> > newspapers and journals. It follows that he didn't exist.
>
> You really don't get it, do you? The Lebor Gabala Erenn has been
> carefully studied by a number of scholars and they have determined
> that it is not an ancient text, but rather a medieval literary
> invention, contstructed from several different sources, including:
> native (and often contradictory) genealogies, some vestigial pagan
> Irish mythological material (filtered by Christian authors),
> Biblical genealogies, and early medieval pseudo-historical texts
> (which are wildly inaccurate and often fantastic in nature, thus
> the "pseudo-" tag).

Did they remember to wear their pointy hats and all hold the stake
when they drove it in? Because if they didn't the evil theory will
rise again, unless they would come up with counterargument, which is a
risky business.

> The sections of the LGE concerned with the
> migration from Spain of the Milesians was ultimately based on the
> wiritngs of the medieval Spanish author Orosius and Isidore.
>
> Let me quote Donnchadh Ó Corráin ("Creating The Past: The Early
> Irish Genealogical Tradition"):
> http://www.ucc.ie/chronicon/ocorr.htm
>
> "24. The earliest working out of the Isidorian schema

What is the Isidorian schema?

> is to be found in the higher genealogical reaches of two historical
> poems on the Leinster dynasties, already referred to: (i) `Nuadu
> Necht ní dámair anfhlaith' and (ii) Énna, Labraid, lúad cáich'.
> These parts of the poems deal with the ascent of the Leinstermen
> from the common ancestor, to an ancestor of all the Irish (Míl of
> Spain) and thence to Japhet, Noah and Adam. While most of the fifty
> or so names in the line of ascent are common to both poems,

That solves it. They must have copied each other, so it's wrong.

> there are some important differences---they do not agree about the
> name of the son of Gomer, son of Japhet, from whom the Irish
> descend; one has Gáedel Glas (eponymous ancestor of the Goídil `the
> Irish'), the other not; the one knows nothing of Fóenius Farsaid
> and Nél, two important figures in the subsequent development of the
> origin-legend. These are very unlikely to be the work of a single
> author. Rather, they represent variants of a broad historical
> construct in the making in the monastic schools, in the late
> seventh century.

In other contexts, they would be called alternative theories. The
compilers were faced with the task of constructing a line of descent
from sources of varying provenance and quality. Nothing sinister about
that.

> One of the nodal characters in this legend is Míl of Spain, a
> transparent literary invention (= Miles Hispaniae,
> `Soldier of Spain').

Let's call that that 'an attempt at an etymology' instead.

> It was believed that the Irish discovered Ireland from Brigantia in
> Spain. As Rolf Baumgarten has recently shown, the source of this
> legend is a reading of Orosius (I ii 71 and 80) in the light of
> Isidore (Etymologiae XIV vi 6)."

Has Rolf Baumgarten also shown that there couldn't have been an oral
tradition behind this coincidence?

> > > [Thus he asks us to ignore the few historical sources from the
> > > time period that we now possess, as well as ignore]
> >
> > Like you recommend we ignore the Lebor Gabala Erenn?
>
> Are yuo really that daft??!!

Yes??!!

> The LGE is a pseudo-historical mish-mash composed in the middle
> ages - Gildas' De Excidio WAS COMPOSED IN THE 6th CENTURY and
> discusses events that had just occurred/were still ocurring at the
> time of its writing!!!

Gildas' prospective audience was hardly unbiased. People who are being
chased from the land they thought was theirs are likely to be upset.
But as Oppenheimer points out, there are no mass graves from the
period, and settlements show no interruptions. On the other hands,
after the single massacre of Lidice, the Nazis had peace and quiet in
the Czech lands. Sometimes, that's all it takes.

> > > [The paucity of Celtic words in English can be explained not
> > > only by the fact that Celtic was low-prestige to the Germanic
> > > invaders, thus there was no incentive to use it,
> >
> > American English has a number of Native American loans, many more
> > than English has Celtic ones.
>
> My lord, can you really not see that these two situations were
> ENTIRELY DIFFERENT?!

Tell me in which way the were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

> Have you conducted ANY sort of research on language replacement?

No. Tell me about yours.

> > > plus large areas of Britain were apparently de-populated [both
> > > due to war, emigration to the Continent or Western Britain, and
> > > plague/famine], thus there was no one around to teach the
> > > newcomers Brittonic in the Eastern parts of the island.
> >
> > How come Western Britain wasn't?
>
> Because the Western Britons were tougher?

Can I make an informed guess where your ancestors are from?
So Western England was populated with tough Celts and Eastern England
with weak Celts, and they spoke the same language?

> > > Additionally, when they reached the Roman cities of Britain,
> > > Germanic newcomers were more likely to have encountered Latin
> > > speakers than Brittonic]
> >
> > Why was that not the case in Western Britain?
>
> There was less Roman influence in certain parts of Britain.

How come there was more Roman influence in Eastern Britain?

> > > > > In fact, there is little-to-no doubt among modern linguists
> > > > > that the Belgae spoke a Celtic dialect. -
> >
> > That would be those who can't read German?
>
> Such as?

I have no idea. Can they?

> > > > So Kuhn is old-fashioned? That is a serious accusation.
> > >
> > > Well, if he thinks the Belgae didn't speak Celtic...he might be
> > > daft.
> >
> > You won't know till you read him. I wonder if I should translate
> > his most important articles?
>
>
> Ich habe Kuhn gelesen.

Dann hättest du wohl die Antwort wissen müssen auf die Frage ob er so
blöd war, dass er meinte, die Sprache der Belgae sei nicht keltisch?

> > > > > the onomastic material alone supports this fact.
> >
> > Which onomastic material?
>
> Umm...the continental and insular Belgic onomastic material!

Did you defend that point of view when we had that discussion here?
As I recall it, only Arnaud did?

> > > Funny that only tin-foil-hat types find any validity in his
> > > shoddy linguistic research.
> >
> > Who is which here?
>
> Certainly not I.

No, I was wondering if you were referring to Kuhn here.
I know your attitude to my contributions.


Torsten