From: george knysh
Message: 59307
Date: 2008-06-18
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> Putting Torsten's usual fantasies aside ("Carpi" BTW does very well
as an ethnonym related to the mountains, and is neatly attested for
the 3rd c.AD, and for the Gothic period if you please), and leaving
the Charudes and Ariovistus where they belong,
I had hoped for some criticism to the point, but of course you can't
be in good shape always.
****GK: I'm no longer interested in criticizing fringe fantasies.****
> The Croats clearly enter history as players in and around the Avar
political context. C. Porphyrogenitos cites Byzantine administrative
material from the the time of Heraclius[610- 641] (DAI c. 30 wr. ca.
951), where he makes some interesting points: (a)The use of the term
"Belochrovatia" ("White Croatia") indicates the Slavic component; but
(b) The names of the leaders of the Croatian migration to their new
homeland are hardly Slavic.
>
> Does Gol/ab offer any theories as to these names?
>
> They are (I transliterate fro0m Bury): KLUKAS. LOVELOS.
KOSENTZES. MU(K)HLO. KHROVATOS (B's conjecture. Cld be something else)
****GK: I forgot to add "sisters" TUGA and BUGA.****
>
Isn't it annoying I'm the only one who read the book?
G. doesn't mention them, I'm afraid.
What is B's conjecture, BTW?
****GK: Bury, as in the previous line.****
My view, for what it's worth, is that the Avars, after consolidating their rule in the Danubian basin, established a string of defensive positions against the threatening (at the time) Turks in and north of the Carpathians, largely manned by Slavic auxiliaries, probably led by non-Slavs of uncertain ethnicity (unless one cares to have a crack at the names listed supra. The Avars were a pretty mixed bunch). These various complexes were called "Croatias" (I can only speculate as to the why: possibly from the name of the Avar concivis in charge, possibly for other reasons). The only "colour" (steppe geographic designation) I am familiar with here is "White" Croatia ["Red" Rus' though located on the territory of an older "Croatia" does not imply that these were "Red" Croats], in the sense of "western" Croatia. In the Kyivan Primary Chronicle, the Dalmatian Croats are still called "White" Croats, those of Galicia just plain "Croats". Some Croatias continued
to exist after the fall of the Avars, but eventually other names replaced this nomenclature. Whoever the original leaders of the Dalmatian Croats were, by the ninth century their descendants had almost certainly been thoroughly Slavonized.