Re: Early Croatian names

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> > Putting Torsten's usual fantasies aside ("Carpi" BTW does very
> well as an ethnonym related to the mountains, and is neatly
> attested for the 3rd c.AD, and for the Gothic period if you
> please), and leaving the Charudes and Ariovistus where they belong,
>
> I had hoped for some criticism to the point, but of course you can't
> be in good shape always.
>
> ****GK: I'm no longer interested in criticizing fringe fantasies.****

The witches are ungrateful, so now the Grand Inquisitor is insulted.

> > The Croats clearly enter history as players in and around the Avar
> political context. C. Porphyrogenitos cites Byzantine administrative
> material from the the time of Heraclius[610- 641] (DAI c. 30 wr. ca.
> 951), where he makes some interesting points: (a)The use of the term
> "Belochrovatia" ("White Croatia") indicates the Slavic component;
> but (b) The names of the leaders of the Croatian migration to their
> new homeland are hardly Slavic.
> >
> > Does Gol/ab offer any theories as to these names?
> >
> > They are (I transliterate fro0m Bury): KLUKAS. LOVELOS.
> KOSENTZES. MU(K)HLO. KHROVATOS (B's conjecture. Cld be something
> else)
>
> ****GK: I forgot to add "sisters" TUGA and BUGA.****

Gol/a,b has a lot on the river Bug and its various derivatives, river
names or appellatives, which to him must be Slavic, even a river *Buga

> Buha. But nothing on tuga.'

...

> What is B's conjecture, BTW?
>
> ****GK: Bury, as in the previous line.****

I guessed as much. What is Bury's conjecture?

> My view, for what it's worth, is that the Avars, after consolidating

their rule in the Danubian basin, established a string of defensive
positions against the threatening (at the time) Turks in and north of
the Carpathians, largely manned by Slavic auxiliaries, probably led by
non-Slavs of uncertain ethnicity (unless one cares to have a crack at
the names listed supra. The Avars were a pretty mixed bunch). These
various complexes were called "Croatias" (I can only speculate as to
the why: possibly from the name of the Avar concivis in charge,
possibly for other reasons). The only "colour" (steppe geographic
designation) I am familiar with here is "White" Croatia ["Red" Rus'
though located on the territory of an older "Croatia" does not imply
that these were "Red" Croats], in the sense of "western" Croatia. In
the Kyivan Primary Chronicle, the Dalmatian Croats are still called
"White" Croats, those of Galicia just plain "Croats". Some Croatias
continued to exist after the fall of the Avars, but eventually other
names replaced this nomenclature. Whoever the original leaders of the
Dalmatian Croats were, by the ninth century their descendants had
almost certainly been thoroughly Slavonized.

>

OK, so they were led by these guys, but you are positive that they
would have refused to be led to new settlements, free of charge, by
Ariovistus?


Torsten