Re: An Italic Europe?

At 4:27:37 AM on Tuesday, May 13, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> <BMScott@...> wrote:

>> At 4:11:00 PM on Monday, May 12, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:

[...]

>>> How about
>>> Wendover http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendover

>> From Prim. Welsh *wïnn + duBr 'bright water(s)'.

> Do you have some early instances?

The charter Sawyer 1485 (~968x971[12th c.]) has <æt
Wændofron>; Domesday Book (1086) has <Wendoure>. The late
British form of the second element was *dobra, whence
English <-dover> names. The first element is also found in
in <Winford> (Somerset) and <Wynford> (Dorset) with Prim.
Welsh <frud> (Welsh <ffrwd>) 'stream' (cf. Welsh
<Gwenffrwd>, <Guenfrut> 12th c.)

>>> Wentbridge

>> 'Bridge across the river Went'; according to Watts, the
>> river-name is from PrWelsh *winet or *wine:d, from Brit.
>> *ueneto- or *uene:tio, akin to Welsh <gw^en> 'smile, mirth,
>> favor', ON <yndi> 'charm, delight, joy', OE <wuno:dsam>
>> 'pleasant', etc., all from PIE *wen- 'desire, strive for'.
>> The idea would appear to be 'pleasant (stream)' or the like.

> And so, it has nothing to do with *Weneto-, the people?

At least it has a satisfactory etymology without dragging
them in.

>> [...]

>>> Do the various places in Winter- have a good etymology?

>> Yes. In names like <Winterbourne> and <Wintersett> the
>> first element refers to the season ('stream that runs in
>> winter', 'fold used in winter'); in names like <Winterton>
>> and <Winteringham> it goes back to a masculine name <Wintra>
>> or *<Winter>. These two types cover just about everything.

> Erh, hm.
> And this proves they had nothing to do with *Weneto-?

Proofs are hard to come by in this business, but it
certainly makes it likely that they had nothing to do with
*Weneto-. The early forms of both types are mostly pretty
straightforward and don't fit *Weneto-, and OE <winterburna>
is well-attested.

Brian