Re: Drwnt

From: tgpedersen
Message: 58462
Date: 2008-05-13

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > This puzzles me:
> > In Jürgen Udolph
> > Die Stellung der Gewässernamen Polens
> > innerhalb der alteuropäischen Hydronymie, p. 112,
> > I find (my transl.)
> > "Already at the beginning of the century J.
> > Rozwadowski had pointed to
> > onomastic parallels, the oldest attempt AFAIK comes
> > from R. Ferguson
> > (The River-Names of Europe, London etc 1862, p.
> > 141), who - besides
> > erroneous results - also connected Drwe,ca/Drewenz
> > [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drw%C4%99ca ]
> > and Durance/Druentia.
> > [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durance ]
> > The following names are closely connected with those
> > of
> > Drwe,ca/Drewenz (zero grade + -nt- suffix and full
> > grade + -nt-
> > suffix, respectively):
> > 1. Druantia, now Durance, left trib. of the Rhône,
> > with toponym Druantium and adj. (nautae) Druentici.
> > 2. *Druantia, now Drance/Dranse, left trib. of the
> > Rhône,
> > with three source rivers Drance.
> > 3. *Druantia, now Drance/Dranse, trib. of the Lac
> > Léman.
> > 4. *Druantia, now Drouance, river in Normandy.
> > 5. *Druentia, analyzed out of the toponym (Forum)
> > Druentinorum in the
> > Aemilia.
> > 6. *Dru(w)n.tos (or long root vowel ?) in the
> > Byeloruss. lake name
> > Drywiaty.
> > 7. *Dravant- in the present river name Trionto in
> > Lower Italy.
> > 8. *Dravant- in the (now disused) river name
> > Trounsach, 1350
> > Trounsach, 1351 dronsach, druonsach, a trib. of the
> > Iller.
> >
> > As the compunds show, zero grade formations with a
> > suffix -ant-
> > predominate, beside them appear full grade names
> > extended with the
> > formant *-n.t-, among which - as W.P. Schmid has
> > shown - zero grade is
> > frequent. The geographical distribution should be
> > noted: the three
> > East Prussian and Byelorussian names, beside a
> > number of occurrences
> > in Italy and Normandy, are matched by three
> > hydronyms in Southern
> > France and Western Switzerland."
> >
> > OK, so typical Old European, ie. in this
> > interpretation Venetic names.
> > How come these are left out of the list:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Derwent
> > eg this one
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derwent_Water
> > (in which there is mysterious fish called the
> > vendace
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coregonus_vandesius
> > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vendace
> > )?
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> >
> Derwent is from the Celtic word for "oak", right? BUT
> it's a compound word < dVr- "tree, etc." + went. So
> are you saying Derwent et al represent "beloved tree"?
> and vendace "beloved fish"? --I would have guessed its
> skin was made into bags for Vendôme and Versace
> boutiques ;>


Well, that's what Wiki says, so it's received wisdom. The question I'd
like to know the answer of is: Do the British and Continental
Derwent-'s have the same etymology? Because if they do, chances are
they are Venetic, not Celtic. The root recurs in all the Drava etc
rivers (cf. the German River Trave,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trave
with proper Grimm-shift, but note, oddly, Udolph, p. 104, on the
Polish river Drawa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawa
"High German influence can be observed the in occurrences of 1251
Traba, Trabam, 1364 Traba, Trabam etc" and the 'Tarentefort' in he
Domesday Book for Dartford on the River Darent/Darenth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Darent
which makes one suspect the occasional *dr- > *tr- isn't necessarily
because of Grimm, cf. PIE *dr- > Latin tr- .
And, BTW, on the root, p. 105:
"Because of the facts that the root *drew-/drow- in appellatives only
occurs in eastern IE languages (eg. in Sanskr. dravá-h. "course, rapid
movement, fluid, fluidity, sap"; from the verbal stem *drewo:, eg. in
Sanskr. drávati "runs, flows"), that the Pommeranian river name most
likely can be derived from *Dra:ua:/Dro:ua: and that comparable Names
also might be found outside the Slavic area ..., one might assume with
some certainty that the name is of pre-Slavic origin."


Here's some more Wenet- suspect stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel%2C_Ille-et-Vilaine
(note the Breton name)


Torsten