Re: Djilas

From: tolgs001
Message: 58024
Date: 2008-04-25

>****GK: The term "Rutheni" is a dead give away here.
>The only "Rutheni" in the early 10th c.(and the term
>itself did not yet exist I believe, barring a memory
>error. "Rugi" "Ros" yes.) were the Varangians. After
>the conversion of Volodimer, Varangians and Polani
>aristocrats fused as "Rus'", but the application of
>"Rutheni" to most Eastern Slavs was delayed until the
>time of Volodimer Monomakh (+1125). There is a bit of
>anachronism in the Hungarian chronicle.****

And it is not the only one. For instance, the author systematically
refers to "Cumans". One only can infer that he means those
three tribes of Kavaroi, he never mentions as such (but he
quotes some names of their chieftains; I don't know whether
these were confirmed by external sources). In another paragraph
he reports on some battles with "Romans" in Western Pannonia,
and those Romans flee to Germany. Some historians think
those were Franks. At the same time, the author explicitely
write (in different contexts) of Teotonici, Bavarians, Saxons
and the like. But other chroniclers were even more chaotic.
For example Simon of Keza who wrote his alternative chronicle
about 80 years later mixes up people and events from three
different epochs: Attila's, the Avars' and the 9th-10th century,
the epoch of the genuine Hungarians. So much so, that, based
on these primary chronicles, some historians are convinced that
there were two Attilas: the Hun, and some (perhaps) Avar one,
perhaps contemporary of Charlemagne.

> ****GK: Very doubtful unless after 1036.****

But what if those Tonuzoba and Huhot and Billa + Bocshu really
settled in Hungary during Tokshun's and Geza's time? If
a 12th/13th c. chronicler makes big mistakes, OTOH we should
take into consideration that they had insights into internal stuff
at the king's court (stuff that has been lost). And even if there
were confusions, they were contemporaries of Cumans at least,
so perhaps they too were aware of the fact that those various
Turkish populations with different ethnonyms were actually
the same "nation".

George