Re: Hachmann versus Kossack?

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > There is a very good reason why you don't find
> any
> > > Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci and
> Sicambri there after
> > > Germanicus went looking for them.
> >
> > GK: What are you talking about? Where is
> "there"
> > and when is "there"? Tacitus' Annales and Germania
> > seem to tell an adequate story.
>
> The Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci and
> Sicambri
> participated in the Clades Variana.

****GK: Yes.****

Germanicus went

> on a punitive
> expedition in Germania after that. Any member of
> those tribes he met
> on his way would have been in trouble.

****GK: The Marsi certainly were. They seem to have
suffered the most. It's unclear if they still existed
in 98 CE (if so they were not very significant any
more(?)****

It's safe to

> assume they
> changed location at that time, even though they won
> the war,

****GK: I don't see that in the sources. "Moving and
manoeuvering around" and "changing location" is not
quite the same thing. By 18 CE most if not all would
have been back in their old territories. When we first
hear of the Chatti, for instance, (in Strabo 7.1.3-4,
writing ca. 18 CE) they are between Elbe and Rhine,
and Tacitus' Annals for the year 15 (1.56) point to an
area in Hesse. And that's where they still are in 98
CE for all their manoeuverings. It's best not to
assume migration at a particular period unless one has
archaeological or documentary evidence.****

> eventually (but it must have depleted them too, and
> Elbe Germani
> reinforcements were most likely welcome).

****GK: One interesting thing archaeology might tell
us is the EXTENT of the EG immigration. Were the later
Chatti 30, 40, 50, 60% EG? This would have obvious
linguistic consequences. But I guess Hachmann and
Kossack don't go into such details.****

At least

> that's what the
> Annals tell us.

****GK: And archaeology tells us that the Chatti and
others like them adopted the Elbe Germanic material
culture at that time.****

> This is a comment to Kossack's version that Elbe
> Germani didn't really
> settle beyond the Weser until after the Romans
> withdrew a few years
> later. That doesn't mean Hachmann might not be right
> that they began
> infiltrate that area already a half century before.
> The loss of trade
> caused by the new border would have weakened the
> communities in those
> areas; so would constant border conflicts (which the
> immigrating EG
> and Przeworsk people wisely stayed out of).

****GK: We don't really know such specifics (esp.under
the Hachmann scenario). All we know is that by the end
of the second decade of the 1rst c.CE there are no
more discernible "Przeworsk people" anywhere except in
Poland and Ukraine.****

>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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