Re: Kossack's Conclusions

From: tgpedersen
Message: 55637
Date: 2008-03-21

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <miguelc@...>
wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:39:58 -0000, "tgpedersen"
> <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> >How about this: The Hermunduri/Turingi/Terwingi came from Torun´?
> >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50783
>
> The PDF linked to (Czarnecki.pdf) staes that:
>
> Die Bezeichnung der polnischen Stadt ist entweder slawischer
> Herkunft (< Tarnowo durch die deutsche Vermitlung Thorn)
> oder eine hybryde Bildung, die aus gotischem Thor- (es geht
> um die germanische Wurzel þôr-, die einen Personennamen
> bezeichnet) und slawischem -un' (ein Suffix) besteht. Vgl.
> Rospond (1984: 397), Rymut (1987: 247), Warchol/ (2002: 214
> - 215).
>
> I found this at www.poradniajezykowa.us.edu.pl
>
> Jakie jest pochodzenie nazwy Torun?
> Pierwszy zapis nazwy nadwislanskiego miasta lezacego obecnie
> ok. 46 km na poludniowy wschód od Bydgoszczy pojawia sie w
> dokumentach krzyzackich z 1231 roku. Mowa w nich o zalozonym
> przez mistrza Hermana Bolko Torunie (w mianowniku: Torun).
> Jednak, jak wykazaly badania historycznojezykowe (o czym
> zob. w: Rospond S.: Slownik etymologiczny miast i gmin PRL.
> Wroclaw 1984.), nazwy miasta Torun nie nalezy wywodzic z
> zadnej germanskiej podstawy jezykowej. Okazuje sie bowiem,
> ze jej dzisiejsze brzmienie (niezmienne od XVI w.) jest
> skutkiem dwóch procesów: trzynastowiecznego zniemczenia
> pierwotnej, slowianskiej, nazwy Tarnów (takze: Tarnovia) na
> Thorn, nastepnie - Thoron i dalej - Thorun, oraz pózniejszej
> -repolonizacji na Torun- tej ostatniej (por. Rospond).
> Gwoli scislosci dodajmy, ze forma Tarnów ma swój zródloslów
> w staropolskim rzeczowniku tarnina, co z kolei od psl.
> *tr.'nina (w znaczeniu 'tarnina, ciernisty krzew')
> powstalego przez dolaczenie przyrostka -ina do rdzenia
> wyrazu *tr.'nU (stp. tarn) - 'ciern''. Tak wiec w
> ostatecznym rozrachunku Torun zawdziecza swa nazwe roslinie
> znanej skadinad jako Prunus spinowa.
>
> [What is the origin of the name Torun'?
> The first attestation of the name of this town on the Wisla,
> lying some 46 km to the SE of Bydgoszcz, appears in
> documents of the Teutonic Knights from 1231. It is said
> there that <Torun> was founded by Meister Herman Bolko.
> However, as was shown by historical linguistic
> investigations (for which see Rospond, S. "Slownik
> etymologiczny miast i gmin PRL" [Etymological dictionary of
> the towns and municipalities of the PRL [Polish People's
> Republic]] Wroclaw 1984.), the name of the town of Torun
> cannot be derived from any Germanic source. It also appears
> that its current form (unchanged since the XVI c.) is the
> result of two processes: the germanization in the 13th. c.
> of the original Slavic name Tarnów (also: Tarnovia) into
> Thorn, later - Thoron and then - Thorun, and the subsequent
> repolonization into Torun' of the latter form (cf. Rospond).
> For completeness we can add that the form Tarnów has its
> origin in the Old Polish noun <tarnina>, which in turn comes
> from PSlav. *tr.nina (meaning 'blackthorn, black bush'),
> formed by adding the suffix -ina to the root *tr.nU (OPol.
> <tarn>), 'thorn'. So in the end Torun' owes its name to the
> plant known as Prunus spinosa.]
>
> It is funny that the English translation of the root to
> which the town owes its name is written the same as the name
> of the town in German (Thorn). [tr.nU and thorn are
> obviously related, PIE *tr.no-].

Thank you for finding that quote. It seems there are a lot of
conclusions around which conclude conclusively without a doubt and
perfectly regularly and normally the opposite of what I propose. Now
if I could get you to quote that Slownik too, I would have a chance to
see whet the argument actually is?


Torsten