From: tgpedersen
Message: 55638
Date: 2008-03-21
>I just noticed that since Czarnetski thinks it might be either of
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <miguelc@>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:39:58 -0000, "tgpedersen"
> > <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >How about this: The Hermunduri/Turingi/Terwingi came from Torun´?
> > >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50783
> >
> > The PDF linked to (Czarnecki.pdf) staes that:
> >
> > Die Bezeichnung der polnischen Stadt ist entweder slawischer
> > Herkunft (< Tarnowo durch die deutsche Vermitlung Thorn)
> > oder eine hybryde Bildung, die aus gotischem Thor- (es geht
> > um die germanische Wurzel þôr-, die einen Personennamen
> > bezeichnet) und slawischem -un' (ein Suffix) besteht. Vgl.
> > Rospond (1984: 397), Rymut (1987: 247), Warchol/ (2002: 214
> > - 215).
> >
> > I found this at www.poradniajezykowa.us.edu.pl
> >
> > Jakie jest pochodzenie nazwy Torun?
> > Pierwszy zapis nazwy nadwislanskiego miasta lezacego obecnie
> > ok. 46 km na poludniowy wschód od Bydgoszczy pojawia sie w
> > dokumentach krzyzackich z 1231 roku. Mowa w nich o zalozonym
> > przez mistrza Hermana Bolko Torunie (w mianowniku: Torun).
> > Jednak, jak wykazaly badania historycznojezykowe (o czym
> > zob. w: Rospond S.: Slownik etymologiczny miast i gmin PRL.
> > Wroclaw 1984.), nazwy miasta Torun nie nalezy wywodzic z
> > zadnej germanskiej podstawy jezykowej. Okazuje sie bowiem,
> > ze jej dzisiejsze brzmienie (niezmienne od XVI w.) jest
> > skutkiem dwóch procesów: trzynastowiecznego zniemczenia
> > pierwotnej, slowianskiej, nazwy Tarnów (takze: Tarnovia) na
> > Thorn, nastepnie - Thoron i dalej - Thorun, oraz pózniejszej
> > -repolonizacji na Torun- tej ostatniej (por. Rospond).
> > Gwoli scislosci dodajmy, ze forma Tarnów ma swój zródloslów
> > w staropolskim rzeczowniku tarnina, co z kolei od psl.
> > *tr.'nina (w znaczeniu 'tarnina, ciernisty krzew')
> > powstalego przez dolaczenie przyrostka -ina do rdzenia
> > wyrazu *tr.'nU (stp. tarn) - 'ciern''. Tak wiec w
> > ostatecznym rozrachunku Torun zawdziecza swa nazwe roslinie
> > znanej skadinad jako Prunus spinowa.
> >
> > [What is the origin of the name Torun'?
> > The first attestation of the name of this town on the Wisla,
> > lying some 46 km to the SE of Bydgoszcz, appears in
> > documents of the Teutonic Knights from 1231. It is said
> > there that <Torun> was founded by Meister Herman Bolko.
> > However, as was shown by historical linguistic
> > investigations (for which see Rospond, S. "Slownik
> > etymologiczny miast i gmin PRL" [Etymological dictionary of
> > the towns and municipalities of the PRL [Polish People's
> > Republic]] Wroclaw 1984.), the name of the town of Torun
> > cannot be derived from any Germanic source. It also appears
> > that its current form (unchanged since the XVI c.) is the
> > result of two processes: the germanization in the 13th. c.
> > of the original Slavic name Tarnów (also: Tarnovia) into
> > Thorn, later - Thoron and then - Thorun, and the subsequent
> > repolonization into Torun' of the latter form (cf. Rospond).
> > For completeness we can add that the form Tarnów has its
> > origin in the Old Polish noun <tarnina>, which in turn comes
> > from PSlav. *tr.nina (meaning 'blackthorn, black bush'),
> > formed by adding the suffix -ina to the root *tr.nU (OPol.
> > <tarn>), 'thorn'. So in the end Torun' owes its name to the
> > plant known as Prunus spinosa.]
> >
> > It is funny that the English translation of the root to
> > which the town owes its name is written the same as the name
> > of the town in German (Thorn). [tr.nU and thorn are
> > obviously related, PIE *tr.no-].
>
> Thank you for finding that quote. It seems there are a lot of
> conclusions around which conclude conclusively without a doubt and
> perfectly regularly and normally the opposite of what I propose. Now
> if I could get you to quote that Slownik too, I would have a chance
> to see whet the argument actually is?