--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> On 2008-01-21 14:35, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > Rom. puT& /puc&/ 'small penis' < Rom-Subtr. *putsa: < PIE *puk^-e-h2
> >
> > Marius
> >
> > P.S. No need for "the invented" Latin-form *pu:tium
>
> Is it invented? It could easily have been abstracted from
> <prae-pu:tium>. It's already there, so there's no need to invoke a
> substratal word.
Regarding the sematism of the abstraction it could work: but why "pre-"
was lost? This is difficult to explain: I don't remember any Latin word
in Romanian that lost his Latin prefix
> It would only make sense if you had some damn good
> independent evidence that such *puk^ah2 really existed.
>
> Piotr
I think that I have this evidence:
==================================
Is Albanian : puth 'to kiss, (reflx.III) to make sex' < PAb *putsa <
PIE *puk^-o
If you take a look on the word-family of thuis word you will see that
the initial meaning wasn't so evident 'to kiss'
the below meaning are from Albanin-Romanian Dictionary:
a) puth 1.'to kiss' 2. to touch, to caress 3. to link, to bind, to put
together
b) (ref1.) puthem 1. to kiss (reflex) 2. TO MAKE SEX
c) puthit 1. to collate, to bind,
d) puthitem 1. to collate (reflex)
So the reflexive form Alb. PUTHEM means (only III. pers) 'to make sex'
and Romanian PUT,A means '(small) penis'
The timeframe of Albanian th <-> Romanian t, <PAlb/Dacian? ts /c/
(Albanian thark <-> Romanian t.arc) preceeded the Romanization of
Balkans
Now regarding the Etymology of Albanian PUTH , the proposals that 'we
have' till now, are faraway to be convincing etymologies:
a) Tagliavini (followed by C^abej) "an onomatopeic formation from *bu-
*pu- 'to kiss'" => But there are no -th- verbs formation in Albanian
Viewing the -th- issue Demiraj proposed: "*b(h)us-d(h)- > {2} With
dissimilated anlaut" ...that doesn't mean too much.
b) Meyer (followed by Pedersen) : "cognate to Greek pukazo: 'to cover
closely, to protect' with the semantic shift 'to embrace' > 'to kiss'"
so as you can see : Form PAlb *putsa it could have sense (based on
Romanian putsa '(small) penis') that Albanian puth means originally 'to
make sex' , and the meanning 'to kiss' to be a later "taboo-istic"
formation...
In this case: Albanian puth is indirect cognate with English fuck, and
in this case, Romanian putsa < Rom-Substratum *putsa: is quite 'the
missing link' in this equation..
Marius
P.S.: Note also that Romanian pre-puT, is a recent loan from French