Re: Dutch/vlaams (was [tied] Etruscans)

----- Original Message -----

From: tgpedersen

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:23 AM

Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re: Dutch/vlams (was [tied] Etruscans)

> > =========
> > Arnaud (old)
> > > People never spoke Dutch where I was born.

Torsten Wrong what? Were you talking about Boulogne or not?

========

Arnaud (New)

I restate : Boulogne and the neighoring area never were a Dutch-speaking area.

Hope it is clear enough.

=================== 

Torsten : 
> Re: Boulogne/Bonen:
> Among the Family names mentioned are
> Boloinge : Xrestienne de Bolongne, 1300, Ch. -
> Fulkonis de Bolonia (gén.), 1295, C. -
> Gilles de Boloinge, 1 lb., 1298, T. -
> filii Simonis de Bolonia (gén.), 1295, C ;
> Simon de Bouloingne, 1296, R ;
> Simon de Boloinge, 4 lb., 1298, T ; 1299, P. -
> Trise de Bolonge, 1283, A.
> ========
> Arnaud (old)
> What do you want to assert with this ?
> It's graphic variants of Boulogne.
> ============ =

That's not the point. Two of the names, Fulcho and Trise, are Germanic.

===========

Arnaud (new)

You have the bad habit of drowning the other guy with an awful lot of data,

90% of which is not relevant, so that I don't know what to look at.

Two Germanic names So what ?

I have previously stated that the area has been colonized by Sachsen in the Vth century. Message 49661

Do you mean these names are typically and recognizably Dutch ?

Arnaud

===================

Torsten

Stay on the point. Do you have information that refutes the claim made
her that the Dutch-speaking area in the 7th-8th century included
Boulogne?

===========

Arnaud

 

Pt 1 : Germanic invaders around Boulogne / mer are Saxons. 

 

The area around Boulogne/mer has been invaded by Saxons,

within a radius of about 30 km between 500 and 600.

The place-names have distinctly Saxon : AltSaechsisch features.

Audresselles : Oderselle (1075) < Auda-Hari-seel : seel not saal.

Selles < Selis (826)

Flemish names in Flanders end with -zelle or -zeele with voiced initial.

Most villages around Boulogne end in -thun from *-tu:n and -hem/-hen/-ent from *haim

Frethun : Fraidon-tun

Rinxent : Rinning-s-haim.

these Saxon names from *haim are pronounced with nasal vowel [aN]

while Flemish names are pronounced with nasal vowel [eN] or read [-em]

NB:

Some places are supposed to be Norse :

like Sangatte : sand-gata : sand entrance

which is a small sandbeach tucked between twenty km of cliffs.

 

It is completely farfetched to suppose that the area, mostly occupied by gallo-romans then invaded by Saxons and Norse should speak Dutch.

 

Pt 2 : The patois in Boulogne is highly conservative.

 

Some people still say in year 2008 eau as [jaw] and beau as [bjaw].

As they were in the X century.

I cannot believe they first speak Dutch and that Dutch vanished with no traces.

 

People who claim this area once was Dutch are grossly under-informed.

Arnaud