----- Original Message -----From: fournet.arnaudSent: Friday, November 16, 2007 11:21 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)
<snip>
> PIE *ghans is a compound word : gh_H2 + H2_ns.
> So there is no "rural" or "irregular" situation.
> LAtin has the simple word H2_ns. Most other languages have the compound.
What are arguments for this hypothesis?============ ======
A.F
The arguments are to be found outside PIE.
For example, Chinese has both :
e2 : goose < *ngah (= gh_H2)
yan4 : goose < *ngah + ans- (=H2_ns)
Two synonyms : yan4 being a compound of ngah + ans
I disagree with the traditional view holding the -a- in *ghans < *ghH2H2ns
to be not of laryngeal origin.
I think this is wrong, (whatever Maitre Meillet thought about this)
============ =======
***There is not a shred of credible evidence that yan4 is the result of a compound of * ngah + *ans. For that matter, e2 from *ngah is also so highly unlikely as to be incredible.
To suggest that the PIE word is a compound reflecting two roots, *gh_H2 + *H2_ns is highly unusual by itself. We normally find PIE roots only with root extensions. To suggest that the earlier language that is a parent of both PIE (indirectly, through PAA) and Sino-Caucasian had such a compound is totally without merit.
Finally, this argument seems to imply that the root from which PIE *gh_H2 was derived was something on the order of *ng(h)_H2m for whch there is also no supporting data.
The etymology of *g^hans- should br easily reconstructable for anyone who takes a careful look at the abundant evidence we have in PIE wihtout grasping at straws with questionable reconstructions from very distantly related languages.
The earliest root to be recognized here is PL *K?XE, 'gape, yawn'. Forget about it if you want but PIE *g^he:-, 'gaping, yawning', the PIE derivative (from *K?XÉ-H(A), PIE *g^héH-) , is correctly supposed by Pokorny to be the basis for *g^hans-.
Adding the individualizer *-n produces *g^h(o)Hán(e) or *g^há(:)n-; and + *-s gives us *g^ha(:)ns-.
I am not as certain as Pokorny that this characterizes the goose as the 'bird making a sound as after yawning'. I think a case can be made for the 'gaping one', interpreted as 'ever hungry', however appropriate or inappropriate. Force-feeding geese may have had some influence on this.
A further indication we may be on the right track is PIE *g^han-, 'yawn, gape'.
Patrick Ryan
***