Re: Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

----- Original Message -----

From: Grzegorz Jagodzinski

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:51 PM

Subject: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nighingale)

----- Original Message -----
From: fournet.arnaud
To: cybalist@... s.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:18 AM
Subject: [!! SPAM] Re: [tied] swallow vs. nighingale

> PIE *ghans is a compound word : gh_H2 + H2_ns.
> So there is no "rural" or "irregular" situation.
> LAtin has the simple word H2_ns. Most other languages have the compound.

What are arguments for this hypothesis?

==================

A.F

The arguments are to be found outside PIE.

For example, Chinese has both :

e2 : goose < *ngah (= gh_H2)

yan4 : goose < *ngah + ans- (=H2_ns)

Two synonyms : yan4 being a compound of ngah + ans

I disagree with the traditional view holding the -a- in *ghans < *ghH2H2ns

to be not of laryngeal origin.

I think this is wrong, (whatever Maitre Meillet thought about this)

===================

The presence of other rural words in Latin is not a strict evidence for the
exchange *hanser by the rural anser - but makes this assumption really
probable. So, the evidence that any **H2_ns ever existed should be really
convincing.

Other names of animals, including domesticated ones, have rural origin:
- lupus (*wlkWos > **volquus, **vulquus or **volcus, **vulcus expected),

=========

A.F

Unclear PIE pre-form : wlkw or wlp. Proves nothing.

==============
- scrofa (-f- should not exist in Latin at all),
===========

A.F

LAtin f can be from ghu- : gheu to flow > fu-tilis, fundere.

I agree this word cannot be straightdown inherited from PIE. Loanword.

===================

- bo:s (cf. veni:re < *gWem-, thus *gWo:- > **vo:s expected instead),
===========

A.F

PIE probably had both gw (voiced) and k?w (glottalized).

So this word might not be an exception but from a different sound than *gwem.

==============

- anas, anat- (with -a- that should not exist in internal syllables).

============
A.F

If it is also a compound word, maybe with some connection with H2_ns "goose",

I think this is not a so clear loanword.

============

And so, nothing strange if anser would be taken from dialects as well.

Grzegorz J.

=========

A.F

Out of the five words you proposed, only one is clearly a loanword.

The others can received clean alternative (= non traditional) explanations.

The amount of "dialectal" words, whatever "dialectal" means, seems a bit exaggerated.

====================



____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
http://uk.docs. yahoo.com/ nowyoucan. html