Re: North of the Somme

----- Original Message -----

From: tgpedersen

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:18 PM

Subject: [tied] Re: North of the Somme

  (Scaldis statt des älteren Tabula).

Ihr Flußgebiet muß deshalb vor der Mitte des letzten Jahrhunderts vor Christus schon stark germanisiert gewesen sein (vgl. unten).

In other words, Scaldis is a Germanic name. Other than that,
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part-Roman, part-Celtic hybrids are necessarily from after the Roman
conquest and therefore can't be used to establish the northern border
of Celtic settlement.
=======================

A.F :

I disagree with this point.

If you look at Norse and Frankish settlements in France,

they are usually ending with French -court and -ville (of Latin origin).

 

If we were to discard all these names as proofing nothing about Norse and Frankish settlements, there would be hardly anything left to say.

I consider that hybrids words and words that display non LAtin word-order are data to be taken into account.

 

The Germanic word order in Neu-ville (new town) is hold to prove Germanic Settlements.

Most Neu-ville are in the North

and Ville-neuve in the South.

 

the same reasoning applies to words like Templeuve : templo-vi-um (Temple-street)

 

==========================

> Mareuil : maro-ialos (clearing in the marshes or the big clearing)

Which is where?

===========================

A.F

in Arras District. (DEpt 62)

 

More over

Five Bailleuil < bago-ialos exist in 59 et 62 departments.

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> Beaurains, Beaurainville, Beaurain : Balo-rinos (the white river
(the white Rhine !))

These are the typical Celtic name elements which Kuhn used to
determine Celtic settlement:
"
Es sind die Namenwörter briga "Berg" (mit briwa "Brücke", das von ihm
oft nicht zu scheiden ist), nant = "Tal" und vern = "Erle" ..., die
Namen Novientum/Noviantum und Condate "Zusammenfluß " samt Du:num
"Burg" (nicht in Zusammensetzungen — ...) sowie die auf oialum/=oilum
"

================================
This is not one of them, and Balo- is not necessarily Celtic.

A.F

It can be Gaulish.

And this is already much.

==========================================
> Thérouanne : Tarvo-(w)onna : the river of the Bull
> Was the capital of the Morini.

But is this a typical Celtic name?
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A.F

 

What else can it be ?

 

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> Meaullens : medio-lanum (old name of Arras neighborhood)

Do you have any old forms of that?
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No

I know that there used to be a leprosery in this place

in the XIII century

but I don't have references.
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> Nemeto-cenna : old name near Arras (replaced by Atrebat-is)
> the capital of Atrebates
> Cited by Caesar himself !! (Please pay your respect)
> He had winter campment in this place.

Typical Celtic name?

=======================================

A.F

 

What else ?

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> Miscellaneous
> ============ ====
> Beuvry, Beuvry la Forêt : from bebros "beaver"
> La beuvrière
> ============ ========= =======

Is bebros proof of Celtic settlement?

============================================

A.F :

It usually is taken to be Celtic.

FRance is covered with bebr- place-names.

 

======================================
3 - 4 cases of briva/briga and -oilum/-oialum. Hardly ein breiteres
Vorkommen.

I've uploaded Kuhn's maps of the relevant Celtic toponyms to the files
in the directory 'Kuhn maps'.

=============================================

Thank you for the maps.

 

A general remark is that most of present-day Netherlands

(and some parts of France and Belgie)

that is white on the maps used to be sea-water.

I think a more objective assessment would require to indicate

the coast-line at the time considered.

This is the kind of bias that I dislike.

this white area is not Celtic-less land : it is not dry land at all.

this artificially pushes Celtic typonyms to the south.

 

 

Condate map :

one more obvious case : Condette : 15km from Boulogne.

 

ialos :

there are at least 6 known cases

I can see only three.

 

================

Which other "Celtic" markers would you accept ?

 

- rînos : running water

- rodanos : flowing water

- dan- : valley

- bebro : beaver

- bala : clear-water

- dob : dark-water

- nemeto : sacred place

- odna : water

- broga : bush

- bag : beech

- vabero : small river

- camero : river meander

 

=======================================

 

 

 

 

Torsten