Re: [tied] Re: The role of analogy, alliteration and sandhi in coun

At 1:38:05 AM on Wednesday, May 9, 2007, tgpedersen wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> <BMScott@...> wrote:

>> At 2:31:33 PM on Tuesday, May 8, 2007, tgpedersen wrote:

>> [...]

>>> Similarly English English-speakers tend to diphthongize
>>> long vowels even when speaking foreign languages,
>>> presumably because the low-status Scottish and Irish
>>> varieties of English don't diphthongize long vowels.

>> Most English and U.S. speakers tend to diphthongize long
>> vowels when speaking foreign languages for a much simpler
>> reason: they're doing what comes naturally.

> They're doing what comes naturally to a native
> English-speaker.

To a native speaker of any of the (majority) varieties that
diphthongize the long vowels. Exactly. Nothing to do with
status.

>> Many can't hear
>> the difference between, say, [e:] and [eI], and many who can
>> hear it can't reproduce it, or can't reproduce it reliably
>> without great concentration.

> And the reason they can't hear or reproduce that
> difference it is that the two are dialectal allophones in
> English.

Exactly. Nothing to do with status.

> Native speakers of other languages than English have no
> problem distinguishing them.

Yes. So?

>> Many U.S. speakers aren't even aware of varieties that
>> don't diphthongize long vowels, and if they are, they're
>> likely to find them attractive.

> I see you agree with me.

Obviously not, unless you think that 'attractive' means the
same thing as 'to be shunned as low-status'.

>>> I think this is a general priciple. Somehow you can't get
>>> your brain to accept that those foreigners really in
>>> earnest insist on speaking like the despised yokels of
>>> your own country so you want to help them along on their
>>> pronounciation.

>> Fails the most basic plauibility test, at least in respect
>> of the English example.

> Which one is that, other than your Anglocentric
> idiosyncracies?

My mixed Left-/Rightpondian speech patterns have nothing to
do with the matter. You wrote:

Similarly English English-speakers tend to diphthongize
long vowels even when speaking foreign languages,
presumably because the low-status Scottish and Irish
varieties of English don't diphthongize long vowels.

The explanation doesn't hold water, since U.S. speakers do
the same thing despite (a) general lack of exposure to
Scottish and Irish varieties that don't diphthongize long
vowels and (b) general absence of any sense that such
varieties are low-status.

Brian