From: tgpedersen
Message: 48180
Date: 2007-04-02
>http://theol.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/root/BremmerJN/1987/117/aeneas.pdf
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Also, Vergil was himself from Tuscany. Who knows what he heard
> > > there?
> > >
> > > For the awareness of the Aenes legend among the Etruscans, see
> > > Prof. J.N. Bremmer's paper "The Aeneas-legend from Homer to
> > > Virgil" at
> > >
> > >
> > > (see esp. pp. 18-9)The *-ter/*-tor suffix is not just IE, cf Basque and possibly Iberan
> > >
> > > According to Bremmer, "No reliable indications, literary,
> > > religious, inscriptional, or artistic, therefore exist for the
> > > Romans' own interest in Aeneas before, indeed, 300 BC. Stories of
> > > a Trojan founder we have seen are likely to be external creations,
> > > and the growth of a legend of Aeneas in the city of Rome remains
> > > at best an hypothetical by-product of the period of Etruscan
> > > domination" (p. 18).
> >
> > One could imagine a history something like this: Rome was originally
> > an Etruscan city, but Latin Unterwanderung made it Latin-speaking,
> > finally the Etruscan kings were overthrown. After defeating the
> > Etruscan cities, when it became obvious that the Etruscan culture
> > was moribund, Latin active rejection of Etruscan mythological
> > material about the founding of Rome ceased and they appropriated it
> > as their own. That would explain the hiatus in the presence of the
> > Aeneas story in Rome.
> >
> > From the previously referred to
> > http://www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021051.pdf
> > "
> > We have in the Lydian inscriptions a name Srkastu-, which may be
> > related to the epithet of Zeus in the city of Tios/n in Bithynia,
> > Surgáste:s, -e:ios, mentioned on coins of that town ... .
> > Hesychius calls it an `ónoma barbarikón (`a non-Greek name'). The
> > word is also found in Phrygian (dat.) Surgastoj. Its meaning is
> > unknown (Footnote: Neumann (1988, 14) discusses Surgáste:s, -to:r.
> > He also mentions Surgastos in Old Phrygian (Dd-102, an inscription
> > identified as Phrygian by Neumann). He assumes that it is a
> > parallel formation in Greek and Phrygian, and derived it from a
> > verb *surgad-yo: (root *swerg- `to care for'), as a nomen actoris
> > resp. a verbal adjective (`der, der für seine Schützlinge sorgt'
> > resp. `der Betreute, Beschützte'). This seems improbable to me. In
> > the first place, the Greek form is not Greek: it is written in
> > Greek letters, but it is a name, as Hesych states an `ónoma
> > barbarikón, i.e. `a non-Greek name'. The distribution too suggests
> > a Phrygian-Lydian name taken over in Greek. A present in -ad-yo:
> > is unknown in other Indo-European languages and is probably a
> > typical Greek formation. That the s- was preserved in `Greek' is
> > because it was a loanword. We do not know whether it went from
> > Phrygian to Lydian or vice versa; both languages may have it from
> > a substratum. Gusmani (1980/81) considers connection with Hitt.
> > sarku- `high, eminent, powerful'. (His comparison with the type
> > dalugasti- `length' seems not viable to me, as these words are
> > abstracts, which is not probable here.) We should also keep in
> > mind the strange Greek word súrgastros, on which see the
> > etymological dictionaries). If the name is typically Lydian, it
> > might prove the presence of Lydians in Bithynia (which is supposed
> > if Maeonia was Lydian and if Starke's identification of Ma:sas is
> > correct). But the situation could be explained differently.
> > Gusmani (1980/81) pointed out that -st- is well known in Anatolian
> > onomastics: Mamastis, Pappoustis, Nenestos; Eremastos (Haas 1966,
> > 98), the monster Agdistis. Dr. M.P. Cuypers suggests to me that it
> > wil be continued by (Lat.) Sergestus, the companion of Aeneas (see
> > below, section 4.). I would add the possibility that it is found
> > in the Etruscan name Seks´talus. -alu- is an Etruscan suffix of
> > gentilicia (Rix 1965, 182). Then we may have Seks´t- < *Serkst- <
> > *Serge/ast-. (There is a form Turgaste:s found on Chios, see L.
> > Robert, bch 59, i935, 455, which may be a variant).
> > ...
> > Note that the town Adrasteia, north of Troy, recalls the Lydian
> > personal name Atras´t[a] (with adj. Atras´tali-; see also the
> > comment on atras´ali- in Gusmani 1964,70).
> > ...[summing up]
> > The other fact is that the name Sergestus, of a prominent friend
> > of Aeneas, seems identical with Lydian Srkastu- and Phrygian
> > Surkastos, as dr. M.P. Cuypers suggested to me ... . The point is
> > how Vergil got this name. It is evident that he used it because it
> > fitted in the story. But it is excluded that he got it from Lydia
> > or Phrygia, or Asa Minor in general. So he must have got it at
> > home, from a source that was acquainted with Etruscan traditions.
> > This means that the name was known to the Etruscans (or those who
> > studied their traditions). Above I proposed that it lives on in
> > Etr. Sekst-alu-. So we should be aware that the Aeneis may contain
> > more old elements.
> >
> > "
> > further, note the mention of the river Makestos as the southern
> > border of Ma:sas/Old Maeonia (p. 13)
> >
> > cf. Bremmer's article:
> > "
> > Segesta's Trojan origins (Plut. Nic. 1. 3) are fifth century, and
> > are connected with Athenian diplomatic initiative.
> > ...
> > DH concludes (1. 72. 3) with the statement that
> > Damastes of Sigeum (FGrH 5 F 3) and some others agree with
> > Hellanicus
> > "
> >
> > Sigeum is in the Troad
> > http://www.btinternet.com/~k.trethewey/AncientLights/sigeum.htm
> > "
> > Sigeum (Sigeon or Sigeion)
> >
> > There is a strong possibility that the first lightstructure was at
> > a place known by its Roman name as Sigeum. It is situated about 34
> > km from Çanakkale and is in the region of Yeniköy. At the time,
> > the sea was covering the low-lying land next to this point
> > northwest of Troy and on the southern side of the Hellespont.
> > Sigeum would have been a promontory and a natural place for a
> > daymark or lightstructure. It is also the supposed location for
> > the tomb of Achilles and was of significant strategic importance.
> >
> > One structure built here was known as the Sigeum Pillar. It is
> > said that the Greek poet, Lesches, wrote in 660 BC that there was
> > a guiding light for mariners at Sigeum in the Troad.
> > "
> > so Damastes has a Lydian -st-name and is from the Troad. That
> > should increase the chance that he knew what he was talking about.
> >
> > If, as Beekes suggests, Etruscan Seks´t- < *Serkst- <
> > Lydian-Phrygian *Serge/ast-, then most likely Segestes is the
> > Etruscan verision of Phrygian-Lydian Sergestes.
> >
> > Perhaps Sergest-/Segest- is a person from Sige(s)on?
> > http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1228165
> > That would make the name Siges- originally IE *Serges-, but it
> > wasn't in old Maeonia anyway.
> >
> > On the morphology: more likely it is the -st- of Lat. honos vs
> > honestus; nothing very Greek about that.
> >