--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> > Also, Vergil was himself from Tuscany. Who knows what he heard
> there?
>
> For the awareness of the Aenes legend among the Etruscans, see Prof.
> J.N. Bremmer's paper "The Aeneas-legend from Homer to Virgil" at
>
> http://theol.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/root/BremmerJN/1987/117/aeneas.pdf
> (see esp. pp. 18-9)
>
> According to Bremmer, "No reliable indications, literary, religious,
> inscriptional, or artistic, therefore exist for the Romans' own
> interest in Aeneas before, indeed, 300 BC. Stories of a Trojan
> founder we have seen are likely to be external creations, and the
> growth of a legend of Aeneas in the city of Rome remains at best an
> hypothetical by-product of the period of Etruscan domination" (p.
> 18).
One could imagine a history something like this: Rome was originally
an Etruscan city, but Latin Unterwanderung made it Latin-speaking,
finally the Etruscan kings were overthrown. After defeating the
Etruscan cities, when it became obvious that the Etruscan culture was
moribund, Latin active rejection of Etruscan mythological material
about the founding of Rome ceased and they appropriated it as their
own. That would explain the hiatus in the presence of the Aeneas story
in Rome.
From the previously referred to
http://www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021051.pdf
"
We have in the Lydian inscriptions a name Srkastu-, which may be
related to the epithet of Zeus in the city of Tios/n in Bithynia,
Surgáste:s, -e:ios, mentioned on coins of that town ... . Hesychius
calls it an `ónoma barbarikón (`a non-Greek name'). The word is also
found in Phrygian (dat.) Surgastoj. Its meaning is unknown (Footnote:
Neumann (1988, 14) discusses Surgáste:s, -to:r. He also mentions
Surgastos in Old Phrygian (Dd-102, an inscription identified as
Phrygian by Neumann). He assumes that it is a parallel formation in
Greek and Phrygian, and derived it from a verb *surgad-yo: (root
*swerg- `to care for'), as a nomen actoris resp. a verbal adjective
(`der, der für seine Schützlinge sorgt' resp. `der Betreute,
Beschützte'). This seems improbable to me. In the first place, the
Greek form is not Greek: it is written in Greek letters, but it is a
name, as Hesych states an `ónoma barbarikón, i.e. `a non-Greek name'.
The distribution too suggests a Phrygian-Lydian name taken over in
Greek. A present in -ad-yo: is unknown in other Indo-European
languages and is probably a typical Greek formation. That the s- was
preserved in `Greek' is because it was a loanword. We do not know
whether it went from Phrygian to Lydian or vice versa; both languages
may have it from a substratum. Gusmani (1980/81) considers connection
with Hitt. sarku- `high, eminent, powerful'. (His comparison with the
type dalugasti- `length' seems not viable to me, as these words are
abstracts, which is not probable here.) We should also keep in mind
the strange Greek word súrgastros, on which see the etymological
dictionaries). If the name is typically Lydian, it might prove the
presence of Lydians in Bithynia (which is supposed if Maeonia was
Lydian and if Starke's identification of Ma:sas is correct). But the
situation could be explained differently. Gusmani (1980/81) pointed
out that -st- is well known in Anatolian onomastics: Mamastis,
Pappoustis, Nenestos; Eremastos (Haas 1966, 98), the monster Agdistis.
Dr. M.P. Cuypers suggests to me that it wil be continued by (Lat.)
Sergestus, the companion of Aeneas (see below, section 4.). I would
add the possibility that it is found in the Etruscan name Seks´talus.
-alu- is an Etruscan suffix of gentilicia (Rix 1965, 182). Then we may
have Seks´t- < *Serkst- < *Serge/ast-. (There is a form Turgaste:s
found on Chios, see L. Robert, bch 59, i935, 455, which may be a variant).
...
Note that the town Adrasteia, north of Troy, recalls the Lydian
personal name Atras´t[a] (with adj. Atras´tali-; see also the comment
on atras´ali- in Gusmani 1964,70).
...[summing up]
The other fact is that the name Sergestus, of a prominent friend of
Aeneas, seems identical with Lydian Srkastu- and Phrygian Surkastos,
as dr. M.P. Cuypers suggested to me ... . The point is how
Vergil got this name. It is evident that he used it because it fitted
in the story. But it is excluded that he got it from Lydia or Phrygia,
or Asa Minor in general. So he must have got it at home, from a source
that was acquainted with Etruscan traditions. This means that the name
was known to the Etruscans (or those who studied their traditions).
Above I proposed that it lives on in Etr. Sekst-alu-. So we should
be aware that the Aeneis may contain
more old elements.
"
further, note the mention of the river Makestos as the southern border
of Ma:sas/Old Maeonia (p. 13)
cf. Bremmer's article:
"
Segesta's Trojan origins (Plut. Nic. 1. 3) are fifth century, and are
connected with Athenian diplomatic initiative.
...
DH concludes (1. 72. 3) with the statement that
Damastes of Sigeum (FGrH 5 F 3) and some others agree with Hellanicus
"
Sigeum is in the Troad
http://www.btinternet.com/~k.trethewey/AncientLights/sigeum.htm
"
Sigeum (Sigeon or Sigeion)
There is a strong possibility that the first lightstructure was at a
place known by its Roman name as Sigeum. It is situated about 34 km
from Çanakkale and is in the region of Yeniköy. At the time, the sea
was covering the low-lying land next to this point northwest of Troy
and on the southern side of the Hellespont. Sigeum would have been a
promontory and a natural place for a daymark or lightstructure. It is
also the supposed location for the tomb of Achilles and was of
significant strategic importance.
One structure built here was known as the Sigeum Pillar. It is said
that the Greek poet, Lesches, wrote in 660 BC that there was a guiding
light for mariners at Sigeum in the Troad.
"
so Damastes has a Lydian -st-name and is from the Troad. That should
increase the chance that he knew what he was talking about.
If, as Beekes suggests, Etruscan Seks´t- < *Serkst- < Lydian-Phrygian
*Serge/ast-, then most likely Segestes is the Etruscan verision of
Phrygian-Lydian Sergestes.
Perhaps Sergest-/Segest- is a person from Sige(s)on?
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1228165
That would make the name Siges- originally IE *Serges-, but it wasn't
in old Maeonia anyway.
On the morphology: more likely it is the -st- of Lat. honos vs
honestus; nothing very Greek about that.
Torsten