Re: [tied] Re: Meillet's law

On Pet, siječanj 19, 2007 6:49 pm, mandicdavid reče:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Mate Kapović <mkapovic@...> wrote:
>>
>> On Sri, siječanj 17, 2007 5:40 pm, mandicdavid reče:
>>
>> > What makes you think the Meillet's law operated in the 8th
> century?
>>
>> I didn't say that. However, if you relate Meillet's Law to the
>> disappearance of acute in unstressed vowels, there is some evidence
> that
>> this was posterior to liquid metathesis (cf. Holzers paper on IWoBA
> 1).
>
>
> That's true. However, I find it a bit hard to believe that a system
> with tonal distinctions in all syllables could have existed since the
> loss of PIE laryngeals (already in PBSl) till the Common Slavic
> period, completely unchanged (I mean without any considerable
> analogical processes).

Who says there was no analogical processes?
Not to mention the possibility of the dominant/recessive oposition in
Balto-Slavic (according to MAS).

>> > Slavic populations had already been dispersed over the East of
> Europe
>> > by that time (they had reached the Adriatic coast by the
> beginning of
>> > the 7th ct); can a process like the Meillet's law spread over
> such a
>> > vast territory?
>>
>> Well, Dybo's Law was also probably post-migrational and it operated
> in all
>> or most dialects.
>
>
> Why is it considered to be post-migrational? If it occurred in, say,
> 8th century, It had to reach (almost) all Slavic dialects in quite a
> short time, certainly before the 10th century.

Doesn't that sound familiar? There are many other Common Slavic
innovations as well.

> The loan words from (and to) other languages might help here perhaps,
> but I don't really think the loans are very relevant.

I agree, but I don't think we can just disregard them totally.

>> > I meant it may have been earlier. If the laryngeal existed at that
>> > time (e.g. a glottal stop) in all syllables, and was subsequently
>> > lost in unstressed position, it would have dissapeared in a.p. c
>> > stems as well. In a.p. a, on the other hand, it would be
> preserved,
>> > and eventually yield the rising tone.
>>
>> Sure, but there are a lot of acutes in Slavic which are not
> laryngeal or
>> Winter-derived... In that cases, you would have to assume an
> inserted
>> laryngeal/glottal stop in vrddhis like *ty´´kati, which seems
> impossible,
>> or you'd have to have the acute as well as the laryngeal.
>>
>
> I agree. That would mean all vrddhis were circumflex, and they
> aren't. Glottal stop insertion seems improbable to me too. But isn't
> tykati circumflex (like tícati)?

Cf. also do`ticati, po`ticati etc. Also bírati, but u`birati etc.