--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> ************
> My view about Rom suffix esh and Albanian esh is that it was
> derived from enses, plural form of different ethnic names (cf.
> Narbon-enses, Olbon-enses etc.), with regular outcome of ns- > -s-
> in Proto-Albanian/Dacian, so place names in Romania, like Arg-esh,
> Ari-esh, Mamur-esh denote inhabitants of the Ari-, Arg-, Mamur-, as
> well as place names in Albania and Dardania, like Arbn-esh, Kurvel-
> esh, Makr-esh, Martan-esh, Pad-esh, Part-esh, simply denote
> inhabitants of such places. This suffix is also attested in river
> name Vel-esh and in oronym Pinjesh.
Abdullah, I think that we are dealing with two suffixes here:
1. -enses > esh
Is that one that you talk about above attested in Roamn inscription
as:
Preda-uenses
Potul-enses
etc...
and
2. -(w)esya present especially in the river names formations
Arguments:
a) Muresh is attested Marisia (Iordanes) so hardly can be
originated from -enses etc..
b) Crish is attested Krisia (Iordanes too) so hardly can be from -
enses too
Please to take together a look on some Dacian Constructions:
A) 'city-naming-formation' :
<specificity-of-the-city> + <da:wa: 'city, fortress'>
Examples:
Giri-dava
Suci-dava
Argi-dava
Petro-dava
Arci-dava
Pirobori-dava
etc...
B) Same type of construction is also present on the 'plant-naming-
formation' too:
<specificity-of-the-plant> + <dila 'flower, plant, herb'>
Propo-dila
Pria-dila
C) so is normal to suspect in all these <today-river-"esh"-
formations> a similar general construction : taken also into account
the attested antiquity names too.
So originary these River names was constructed as:
<specificity-of-that-water> + <-wesya 'a general term for a flowing
water, spring etc..'>
Detecting now the tipology of these constructions : is not difficult
to link a Dacian -(w)esya with the PIE *wes- 'water, spring'
Dacian *-(w)esya > PIE *wes-yo
Let's review the river name list based on this hypothesis:
---------------------------------------------------------
1.Muresh < Ma:ri-(w)esya 'the big river' [Marisia -> Iordanes)
2.Krish < Kri-(we)sya 'the black river' (Krisia -> Iordanes)
3.Argesh < Ardz(i)-(w)esya 'the glittering river' (Ordessos->Herodot)
4.Somesh < Sa:m(i)-(w)esya '?' (attested Samus )
5.Timish < Tim(b)i-(w)esya 'a "Thames" river?' (Timissos, Tibiskos)
Based on *Sa:mwesya we can now better understand the alternance e
versus u => Somesh (in today Romanian) versus Samus (in Roman Times)
why g^ (<*dz(i)we) in Argesh etc...
And I will add to this list:
6. Ariesh < Aur(i)-(w)esya (true also: the river being smaller is
not attested) -> but obvious the same construction is present here
NOTE: in Ariesh we have a hard rr- (< *rw) : and that hard -rr- in
Arryesh was considered by 'some specialists here' as 'a hiatus' /ri-
eS/ in place of /arr-yeS/, that is the right pronunciation of that
river name by the natives there.
But it's true that for others, the -rr- pronunciation cannot be easy
reproduced so they say in place /ri-eS/, /ryeS/, etc... )
I will also say (same probability as Chelsea to win tomorrow after a
draw at home :) ) that Museos(Buzau) and Tissia(Tisa) was initially
constructed based on *wes-yo too
6. Buzau < attested Museos,Muzeos < MBudzi-wesya 'the border? river'
Now 'we better understand' also why we have today a /z/ in Buzau (z <
PAlb/Dacian *g^ from older < *dz(i)we-)
7. Tisa < attested Patissia, Patissus, Tissia < *[Pa-]Tits-sya <
[Pa-]Tits-(we)sya (only the final output was different due to ts(s)ya
> s => a regular Albanoid transformation )
In conclusion knowing the Dacian Construction-Patterns is impossible
Only to add a (PIE) suffix either -syo or -yo for the river name
formations, in order to construct the Dacian River Names.
We need to add in equation a generic term for 'flowing-water' :
PIE *wes-yo > Dacian *wesya
Marius
> Regarding the time of attestation there are many arguments that
> Albnian were present, especially in the city of Ragusa, (Alb
> Rusha `place of grapes', due to VDV= V) in the 12th and 13th
> centuries:
>
> Exactly from Jirecek (1904) we have:"Audivi unam vocem clamantem in
> monte in lingua albanesca. Dated in one document in 1285 in Ragusa
> (Dubrovnik).
>
> In Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis: "Habent enim Albani
> prefati linguam distinctam a Latinis, Grecis et Sclavis ita qud in
> nullo se intellegunt cum aliis nationibus" in 1308.
>
> Brocardus monacus in 1332 wrote: "Licet Albanenses aliam omnino
> linguam a latino habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent
> in uso et in omnibus suis libris".
>
> As we have discussed in Cybalist, Albanian word katunari
`villagers'
> is as well mentioned in Libellus Gothorum from the middle of 12th
> century, also in Ragusa.
>
> So, possibility that Ari-esh could be of Proto-Albanian/Dacian is
> not to be ignored, even, I guess that Ar- as first member of the
> compound in Ar-gyr-untum, may have different semantic, like `field'
> (cf. Podrimja `the valley under the river Drim/Drin').
>
> Konushevci
>
> Merry Christmas and happy New Year
>