> Some of it points in the direction of loss of dative as a category,
> but the problem is I don't know whether this loss is complete or
> only for certain articles, or adjectives, or nouns. I'd like to see
> a statement to that effect (loss of dative) in a grammar of a
> southern dialect (sorry for being so suspicious ;-).
>
> Torsten
I can't give you a scientific answer, but I'd point out
that... "der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod" :-)
http://www.google.com/search?
hl=de&q=%22der+dativ+ist+dem+genitiv+sein+tod%22&btnG=Suche&meta=
This is the famous joking saying that alludes to the
fact that German native-speakers in general more and
more tend to replace the genitive with the dative.
Hence, the dative is strong -- in Low German areas
as well (I don't know how it is exactly when those
people speak their Low German dialects *proper*, i.e.,
not German with mere Low German phonetics and 2-3
regionalisms).
And I'd add that <bei d(i)e Fische> and <mit die
Stiefels> are restricted to certain dialectal and
sociolectal areas. (As for Ruhrgebiet, I'd be
cautious, since it is actually a Hochdeutsch "oasis"
at the "border" between Middle German and Low German
dialects, being to a lesser degree influenced by
Low German phonetics. Many of the inhabitants there
have Polish extraction (their ancestors were colonized
there only in the 80s-90s of the 19th century). So
much as far as the Neerlaendisch neighborhood can be
taken into consideration. For Flemish and Northwest-
block comparisons, methinks Münsterland-Plattdeutsch
would suit much better. Unfortunately this kind of
Low German is unknown to me and seems to be quite
distant from Cologne Platt (Kölsch) and Letzelburgisch
German spoken in Luxembourg.)
Mehr tun mer nich wissn. :-)
George