Re: 'grey' in PIE

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <magwich78@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
> wrote:
> > A detailed refutation of Lubotsky (1989) etymology of *k^as-o- is
> > perhaps in order. He reconstructs the PIE colour stem as *k^h1ei-

,

> > assuming it to be an extension of *k^eh1- 'grey', for which

the

> > only evidence given in the article is Skt. *s'a:rá-

'motley,

> > spotted' and Gk. ke^rulos, a fabulous sea-bird (no

precise

> > description available). The evidence is dubious, to say the

least,

> > and so it's hard to accept the reality of *k^eh1- in the

first

> > place. As for the extended *k^h1ei-, he needs the *h1 next to

the

> > initial stop to account for Slavic *s^- < *x- (BTW, the theory

that

> > *h1 causes the aspiration of a preceding stop anywhere in IE

is

> > Lubotsky's personal and controversial opinion, not

necessarily

> > shared by other IEists). However, the Slavic adjectives *s^e^rU

and

> > *s^e^dU can both be loans from early Germanic (from,

respectively,

> > *xaira- 'grey' and *xaida- 'bright, shining'). Note that the

latter

> > (and possibly the former as well) is a likely cognate of Skt.

ketú-

> > 'brightness' (no aspiration!) and thus has nothing to do

with

> > the 'brown, grey, dark' root *k^jeh1- (sic!) as visible in

Skt.

> > s'yá:va- and, among others, Slavic *sivU and *sinU < *k^ih1-wo-

,

> > *k^ih1-no-. Even assuming a secondary (anti-samprasarana)

full

> > grade *k^eih1- to account for Celtic *keiro- 'dark brown' we

don't

> > get anything that could be used to support

Lubotsky's 'hare'

> > etymology. Laryngeal metathesis doesn't happen right-to-left,

and

> > there's no chance that *k^jeh1- could be an extension of **k^eh1-

> > rather than **k^ei-. I rest my case, m'lud.
>
> You make a good case here, Piotr. If I may, I'd like to try to

link

> these facts together as comprehensively as possible:
>
> Skt. *s'a:rá-, Gk. ke^rulos < IE *keh-ro- or *kex-ro- (I'm not sure
> if the (presumably Attic) Greek form points to *a: or *e:)
>
> Slavic *s^e^rU, *s^e^dU, Germanic *xaira-, *xaida- < IE *koi-ro-,
> *koi-dho-
>
> Skt. ketú- < IE *kei-tu- (related to Slavic and Germanic forms

above)

>
> Skt. s'yá:va- < IE *kjeh-wo- or *kjoh-wo-, from *k(e)i-eh- (i.e.

root

> *kei- plus stative suffix *-eh)
>
> Slavic *sivU, *sinU < IE *kih-wo-, *kih-no-
>
> In conclusion, it seems that there are one or two roots here, both

of

> the form *kei-, one meaning 'bright' and the other 'gray'. It

seems

> that the latter was extended with the stative ending, thus
> meaning 'being gray' (vel. sim.), perhaps to disambiguate it from

the

> other *kei- root.
>
> - Rob

************
I think that also Alb. <(i,e) thimë> 'grey', as well as <thinj> 'make
hoar' (see also Demiraj) are derivatives of *k'ei-, suffixed in -mo
and -n-yo (thinjë 'grizzle' I think is deverbative of <thinj>). But,
problematic are Alb. <surmë> 'dark gray' and <finjë> 'lye'. For the
second word, I think that it's dialectal form, for we have in many
cases shift of /th/ > /f/ and /f/ > th (cf. fëmijë/thmi 'child', i
thellë/i fellë 'deep', therrë/ferrë 'thorny bush, prick', etc.).
I guess that suffixed zero-grade *k'eh-ro-mo could easy yields Alb. <
i surmë>, for *k'y- have yielded Alb. /s/, -ro in unstressed position
became /-or/ and -mo regularly has as output -më.

Konushevci