Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels; the explanation of Old Indian

----- Original Message -----

From: Miguel Carrasquer

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 12:39 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels; the explanation of Old Indian /i/ as zero-grade <a:>

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:19:48 -0500, Patrick Ryan
<proto-language@...> wrote:

>  PIE is the only language in the world for which 'coloring' laryngeals have been proposed.

 

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Open any book on, say, Arabic phonology.

 

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Patrick:

 

I have several books on Arabic, and have opened them.

 

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>  The base form is takS- for this verb. Do you see a long <a:> in it?

Of course not.  Vedic roots are listed in their Paninian
form, i.e. in the zero-grade.

 

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Patrick:

 

You are a font of misinformation!

 

On page 119, I read "bhâ, scheinen". Is that a zero-grade root?

 

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The present is given in LIV as a Narten-present, with
full-grade *té:tk^-, weak-grade *tétk^-.

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Patrick:

 

More misleading information.

 

The root is listend under the heading *tetk^- in LIV. And that is not zero-grade! What proves this? The listing for *demh2- (not *dMh2-, zero-grade). The aorist is listed as *tétk^-/t<e>tk^, full-grade and zero-grade.

 

The present tense full grade is, to be sure, *té:tk^- but the note attached to it says: "Iterativ-durativ 'zusammenbauen, zimmern', Oppositionspräsens zum Wurzelaor."

 

In other words, the present tense vowel has been lengthened to provide a contrast with the root aorist; the long vowel is secondary.

 

Incidentally, LIV has *ped- 'treten; fallen, sinken' with a root aorist *péd-.

 

 

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>  Pokorny shows "pad-, Fuß"; do you dispute this is the base form for Old Indian

Again, the root is given, by convention, in its "zero"-grade
pad-, corresponding to PIE *ped-.

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Patrick:

 

*ped- is not zero-grade; according to LIV, pd- is zero-grade.

 

*bho:i-, be afraid, is a heading in Pokorny; is that zero-grade???

 

The first item under it is bháyate:; is that zero-grade???

 

Where are you getting such strange ideas?

 

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>  >  So what significance do you believe the Old Persian 'revelations' have for this discussion?
>
>  Their significance is that /a:/ was never */ay/, and /a:y/
>  was never */ayi/.  Your theory about /a:/ being /ay/ < /aç/
>  was sort of tenable, but only if you do not know a thing
>  about Iranian.
>
>  ***
>  Patrick:
>
>  Old Persian is subsequent to Iranian. There is not reason I know that Indo-Iranian /a:y/ could not have become /a:I/ by Old Persian times.

??

So you agree that it's silly to posit Indo-Iranian *-ayi for
what was obviously *-a:y?

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Patrick:

 

Is it impossible for you to stick with a topic?

 

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