Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

----- Original Message -----

From: Abdullah Konushevci

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 8:53 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

On 7/16/05, Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: elmeras2000
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:12 AM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
> language@......> wrote:
>
> What do you mean by "by pre-PIE"? How far pre? By PIE, we know with
> certainty that three distinct laryngeals existed. They cause three
> distinct sets of secondary developments in Greek. There is no way
> that can be accounted for by a system containing only two
> laryngeals. 
> Jens
************
thetos, verbal adjective, derived from zero-grade *dH1-tos 'placed' of
the verb *dhe:- 'to set, put', contracted from *deH1-.
So, we have H1 = e.

statos, verbal adjective, derived from zero-grade form *stH2-tos
'standing' of the verb *sta:- 'to stay', contracted from *steH2-
So, we have H2 = a

dotos, verbal adjective, derived from zero-grade *dH3-tos 'gived' of
the verb *do:- 'to give', contracted from *deH3-  (cf. also Gk. dosis
< *dH3-ti, beside full-grade *do:-ro > doron 'gift'; -ti is a suffix
of creatin the abstract nouns).
So we have H3=o

Abdullah,

 

First, the lead-in paragraph was written by Jens not by me.

 

Second, thanks for giving three nice examples of how logically inconsistent the 'laryngeal theory' is in practice.

 

Let us take your first example.

 

If we assume that our starting point is *dhé:- (from whatever source), how can we derive from it *dhH1-tó-s? There is no *H1 in the word from which we form the participle to be avocalically present in it.

 

So, if you want a participle of the form *dhH1-tó-s, you have to derive it from *dhéH1-.    

 

But, do we really need to reconstruct *dhH1-tó-s?

 

Let us, instead, start with *dhéH-, where *H is a phoneme which lengthens any vowel.

 

We now have *dhé:-, i.e. *dhé-é; we have a rule that when we add -*tó-, it produces zero-grade in the syllable to which it is attached, e.g. *mén-, *mN-tó.

 

It is obvious that zero-grade can be defined as the removal of one vowel.

 

If we form a -*tó participle from *dhé:-, which we will temporarily write as *dhé-é-, we must form a zero-grade; first, we must give up the stress-accent, producing *dhe-e-; then we remove _one_ vowel: *dhe-, to which we add -*tó, producing *dhe-tó-.

 

If one assumes that the three verbs had, at one point, the forms *dheH-, *staH-, and *doH-; and that they subsequently lost *H which compensatorily lengthened the vowels: *dhe:-, *sta:-, and *do:-, the participles can easily be derived from them showing the correct vowels.

 

It is therefore unnecessary to reconstruct *dH1-tó-, *stH2-tó-, or *dH3-tó.

 

 

Patrick