Re: [tied] PIE *y > Alb. /z/ (was Re: Romanian Verb )

On 6/9/05, alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

> > You seem to be disregarding the caseforms with t-. The
> distribution >of
> > j-/zero- and t-/s- are exactly as with the IE pronoun *so, *tó-.
> > Therefore this is the pronoun seen in Sanskrit sa, tam, sa:, ta:m,
> > etc., not the one seen in ayam, imam, iyam, ima:m. Pedersen sorted
> out
> > the details in 1900.
> >
> > Jens
>
> No, I didn't want to avoid any form. I only didn't enumerate all of
> them:
> And I didn't proposed the whole Skt. series: ayam, imam, iyam,
> ima:m.
>
> I. To enumerate the forms related to our topic I pl. possesive
> ==============================================================
> 1. Nom.
> fem. jo-në < PAlb *a ja: na < PIE a ya: nos
> masc. y-në < PAlb *a (e)i na < PIE a (e)i nos
> word-by-word translation: 'he/she[nom.]' but also 'this-one
> [nom.]''of ours'
> composed based on the Albanians dem.: a-jo, a-y 'she,he but
> also 'this-one'

[AK]
Albanian third person plural of possesive pronoun feminine form <jonë>
is normally derived from *saH2 + nas > *sa: + na (s > 0) > jonë.

Masculine fomr of third person plural <ynë>, to my view, is derived
from *we- 'we' + nas > *uje + na (s>0) > y:(uj > y as regular outcome
and long y: after contraction) + në.

> 2. Acc.
> fem. tonë < PAlb *(a) ta: na < PIE *a ta:m nos
> masc. tonë too. (I supposed influenced by the a: of the fem. form,
> otherwise it should be
> *tanë < PAlb *ta na < PIE *tons nos
> word-by-word translation: 'that-one[acc.] of ours'
> composed based on the Albanian dem.: a-të 'that'

[AK]

Acc. of <ynë> 'our', as well as Dat., Abl. and Gen. is <tonë> as a
supletive form derived from *taH2 + nas > *to + na (s>0) > tonë. In
same maner was builded the Acc. of feminine form <tonë> of feminine
<jonë>.

> 3. Gen.Dat.Abl
> fem. sonë < PAlb c^a: na < PAlb tsja: na < PIE k'ja:i nos
> masc. sonë (I supposed again influenced by the a: of the fem.form )
> word-by-word translation: 'this-one[gen.dat.ablat] of ours'
> composed based on Albanian dem. so,(si) 'this' (see sonte 'this
> night' and sivjet 'this year')

> Please proposed you derivations here too to can compare both
> solutions.

[AK]
My view is that Gen., Dat., Abl. <sonë> of feminine plural <jonë> is
derived form attested PIE form *tyaH2 + nas > so (due to *ty > s) +
nas (s > 0) > sonë.

> Note-1: So all the pronouns in the first composant are Proto-
> Albanian demonstratives reflecting the construction 'that/this one
> that-is ours'
>
> Note-2: The lack of Tosk-Rothacism is explained by the fact that
> these compounds were still distinct words in that period of time.

[AK]
It seems that you are right.

> Note-3: See also the Romanians Similar Possesive Constructions with
> the Demonstratives:
> a-ia a noastrã 'she/that one that is ours'
> a-ceea a noastrã 'that one that is ours'
> a-ceas-ta a noastrã 'this one that is ours'
>
>
>
>
> II. To resume here the Proto-Albanian Demonstratives (my opinion):
> =================================================================
> 1. Alb. a < PAlb *a < PIE *a < PIE *h1e
> -> proclitic dem. particle same with the Sankrit dem. particle a-
> Cognates: Sanskrit a-
> See Albanians : a-jo, a-y, a-të, a-so etc...
> Sanskrit: a-yam, a-sau also a-dya

[AK]
ay is a locac variant, until <ai> (read <aj> in Albanian trascription
or in IPA [a] [y]) 'he' is all-Albanian.

> Notes: 1. Meyer proposed for Albanian a- < Latin atque
> (no comment here -> closed topic)
> 2. Pedersen proposed *au-
> (but this couldn't fit if Romanian a-ia and Albanian a-jo are
> cognates (as it seems to be) because PRom au/stressed > Rom. au

[AK]
I find Pedersen's explanation more plausible.

III. Pedersen

> =============
> Regarding Pedersen ideas: unfortunately I couldn't arrive to find
> and to read directly what he has written about Albanian. I know
> different affirmations of Pedersen only from other books that quoted
> him.
> Please if you could post here 2-3 phrases of Pedersen regarding
> the Albanian Possesive pronouns, mainly his arguments related to "j-
> /zero- and t-/s-"

[AK]
I will post with pleasure, but not till tomorrow.

>
> Thanks and Best Regards,
> Marius Alexandru
>

Konushevci