PIE *y > Alb. /z/ (was Re: Romanian Verb )

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

> Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
>
> > PIE *y > Alb. /z/
>
> Via PAlb. *3^? Not implausible phonetically, but is there really

any

> evidence for it?

[AK]
Before all, I like to thank you that you found this sound-law
phonetically plaussible via *3^.

> > 1) *yes- > Alb. <ziej> 'to boil, cook' (cf. also Illyrian Aquas

Jasas);

>
> And what happened to the *s?

[AK]
I hope that you will agree about PIE *mu:s > Alb. mi 'mouse', where
the loss of /s/ is so obvious and long stressed *u: > Alb. /i/.
If we agree that in PIE word *su:s- 'pig' we have a dissimilation in
distance s - s > k' - s, than we have another example *k'u:s > Alb.
thi 'pig'.

> > 2)*yew- > për•ziej 'to mix meal', probably from a variant *yew-

nyo

> > (cf. av. yuvati 'id.'); për•ziem•je/përzierje 'mixture' (Pokorny,
> > *yeu-1, 507)
>
> Why should the roots under (1) and (2) be different? And if the

one

> under (2) is from *jeu-, why does it always contain <ie>, also in
> polysyllabic forms?

[AK]
I believe that you agree that *e > Alb. /ie/ is a regular outcome,
if not followed by secondary cluster, when it is /ia/.

> > 3) *yeu-4 'to separate, to hold off' > Alb. përza/përzë (cf.
> > Përzâ/përzë djalin nga shtëpia 'To separate the son from the

house, to

> > hold him off') from o-grade form *you-; i për•zënë 'outlaw',

përzënie

> > 'ouster' (Pokorny, *yeu-4, 511).
>
> The reconstruction in Pokorny is based on practically no evidence

and co

> can't be taken seriously.

[AK]
It's not my guilty. I bag Mr. Rasmusen and other to help us about
this issue.

> >
> > 4) *yem- to hold > zâ/zë 'to hold', prefixed form <nxe> 'hold'

(cf.

> > Skt yamati 'id.')
>
> Given the number of possible sources, *jem- is hardly a self-

evident

> etymology, though it's perhaps the only one here that can't be

dismissed

> at once.

[AK]
Nevertheless, thanks a lot for this confirmation.

> > 5) As I claim before, I think also that Alb. <zgjebë> 'scabies'

is

> > derived from *yebh- 'to copulate' (cf. Slavic jebati 'id.', Lat.
> > iacere 'to lie down').
>
> The semantic connection seems absolutely arbitrary to me; Lat.

iacere

> has nothing to do with *jebH-; and the form cannot be used to

support

> your *j > z idea anyway, since the initial in the Albanian word is
> <z-gj->, not <z->.

[AK]
I was not aware about Romanian form <zgaiba> that could be the proto-
form of Albanian <zgjebë>, but I know for sure that in presence of
the woman or girl it was not good behavior to be cheafed, because in
this way you express your desire to make love with her. The same
rule was valid also for woman. This experience led me to make
connection between Slavic <jebati> and Alb. <zgjebë>.

> > 6) Alb. <zgjedhë> 'yoke' from *yeug- 'to join' (cf. Greek zeugma
> > 'bond', Lat. iugum 'yoke', Sanskrit yoga 'union' etc.)
>
> The *(H?)jeug- root does not contain a Satemisable *g^, so the
> development to Alb. <dh> is ruled out.

[AK]
I agree that it not contain a Satemisabe *g', but what do you think
if it was extended in *yeug-staH2, as are most of Albanian old names.
So, if we assume that velar /*g/ voiced the *-saH2, than it's not
hard to derive Alb. <zgjedhë> 'yoke' from *yeugztaH2.

> > 7) *wikm.ti- 'twenty', zero-grade form *ikm.ti > zati > zet in

një•zet

> > 'one twenty', dy•zet 'two twenty', trezet 'three twenty' etc.
>
> *wik^m.ti- [sic] is already as zero-grade as possible. No forms

without

> the initial *w are attested anywhere, and to get <-zet>, you'd need
> *jm.ti or the like. How do you propose to derive it from the PIE
> numeral? I much prefer the orthodox derivation of <-zet> from

*3^Wm.ti,

> where *3^W is the regular reflex of *wk^- < unstressed *wik^-.

[AK]
Honestly speaking, I am not aware of this rule. Would you give other
examples?

> > In my view, exactly through this sound-law we may be explained

today

> > form of Zadar from Illyrian Iadera.
>
> But if there is no such soundlaw, you must look for another

explanation.

> I don't mean that the two can't be connected, but they don't seem

to be

> relatable by means of regular sound changes.

[AK]
Because I make ad hoc this list, taking a view in Pokorny's root
list, after your's feedback I read one of Çabej's study in this
issue "On SOme Albanian Words that Start with Z" (Eqrem
Çabej, "Studime gjuhësore", IV, Rilindja, Prishtinë, 1977, pp. 25-
55). You may found summary in French "A propos de quelques mots de
l'Albanais commençant par Z".
Despite the fact that he has completly different view about these
etymologies, I appriciate to much two new etymologies, regarding
Alb. adjective <(i,e) zi> 'black' form PIE *i:l (beter *i:li > zij >
zi:) and <zall> 'gravell' from PIE *ie:lo, attested in Croatian as
<3^al>.

> Piotr

Konushevci