Re: [tied] Re: Latin dunc

Daniel J. Milton wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>> Daniel J. Milton wrote:
>>> I don't know "dunc", and can't find it in the online L&S Latin
>>> dictionary, nor in my smaller Cassell's. Nunc, tunc, but not dunc.
>>> Alex, what's your source?
>>> Dan Milton
>>
>> Lateinisches Etymologisches W�rterbuch , A. Walde & J.B Hofmann,
>> Heidelberg 1982
>>
>> dum= noch, als Konj. "w�hrend; bis". etc...
>>
>> du:mus, -i m. "Gestr�pp", dicht verwachsener. usw.....
>>
>> dunc= dum "w�hrend, als" (Inschr. der Kaiserzeit, Zimmermann
> ALL. 5,
>> 571) ist nicht sinkopiert aus _do:nec_ (Solmsen KZ. 34, 9.1, Skutsch
>> Kl. Schr. 239.2, Brugmann I.2 143) oder aus _*dum-que_ (Skutsch
>> Forsch. I 152.1, Stolz HG. I 338), sondern junge Neubildung nach dem
>> Muster von _tum : tunc_, vgl. die Schreibung _tunc_ CE. 1582,
>> 13(Schmalz.5 746). -- Da belegtes _dunc_ stets hypotaktisch
>> ="w�hrend" ist, die von Meyer-L�bke n. 2795, Wartburg III 179 darauf
> zur�ckgef�hrten rom.
> Formen
>> (frz. _donc_ , ital. _dunque_ usw.) jedoch "dann, also" bedeuten, so
>> ist die Verkn�pfung nur haltbar bei Annahme sp�tere
> Bed.-Vermischung mit
>> _tunc_ , wof�r die vereinzelte inschr. Schreibung _dunc = tunc_
> kaum
>> einen gen�genden Anhalt bietet; da andererseits _do:nec =
> denique,
> dann,
>> endlich_ im Sp�tlatein belegt ist (Schmalz.5 755), ist vl. die
> alte
>> Herleitung aus _donique_ (Gr�ber ALL.2 103 ff., Persson IF. 2,
> 222)
>> vorzuziehen.
>>
>>
>> Alex
> ********
> Thank you. I'm not quite clear -- is your dictionary saying
> that "dunc" as a Latin word is attested in an isolated inscription?

yes. very probably analogicaly to "tunc"

> The earliest (X, XI cent.) French form of "donc" is "dunc", but
> it seems by no means clear that it derives from an identical Latin
> word.

my dictionary says French and Italian forms do not derives from "dunc"
but derives from "donique" which is en fine found in in late Latin
texts. The "dunc" one apears in some inscriptions, has the meaning of
"while" and not of "therefore", and was builded most probably from dum
under the influence of tum > tunc; thus dum > dunc.

> Littre's Dictionary has:
> "Proven�. donc, dunc, doncas, alors, donc ; catal. doncs ; anc.
> espagn. doncas ; anc. ital. dunqua ; ital. mod. dunque ; pays de Come,
> donch ; v�nitien, donca.

> Dan

I see Romance has variants with "d". Does it mean "tunc" left no traces
in Romance?

Alex




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