Re: [tied] IE *de:(y)- 'bind'.

----- Original Message -----

From: elmeras2000

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:30 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] IE *de:(y)- 'bind'.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
language@......> wrote:
 
>    <snip>
>   >   >   As for *yaH-, I would regard the stative as
meaning 'gone
>   away' not
>   >   'be in progress'; that would be, by my lights, durative,
hence
>   present
>   >   or imperfect. The perfect would convey 'gone to and arrived
at'.
>   >     ***
>
>   Yes, *yaH- is basically a durative verb.
>
>   ***
>   Patrick writes:
>
>   If you wan to disagree, fine. But why write "Yes" as if I agree
with you when I do not?

Sorry, I should have sensed that it was only your unclear English
style that enabled me to read some sense into your words.

 

***

Patrick writes:

 

What is "unclear" about "...*yaH, I would regard the stative as meaning 'gone away' not 'be in progress'?

 

Perhaps it is the lenses lof your glasses which are "unclear".

 

But since you bring up the point above, it appears that agreement with your point of view is the only thing that does make "sense" -- to you.

***

>   I do _not_ think *yaH was durative! I think it was stative.
>   ***

 

And what, then, do you mean by that? Surely you do not mean it is a
perfectum tantum which it is not. Nor can you mean it is a suffixed
formation with the stative marker *-eH1-, for they have y-presents,
and ya:- has an athematic root present. And you cannot mean it is a
middle-voice verb without -t- in the 3sg (Oettinger's 'Stativ'), for
this is not generally used in the middle voice at all. It *is*
descriptively a verb that forms its durative aspect stem
(aka 'present' stem) without any addditional marking. But you don't
mean that, you say. So *do* you mean anything interesting?

 

***

Patrick writes:

 

First, in my opinion, the formant for the stative has the shape -*Ha- in PIE.

 

Second, I think you know very well what "stative" is. "Belonging to or designating a class of verbs which express a state or condition".

 

We have already exhaustively discussed that verbal roots of the form *CVy- if, originally durative, cannot be shown to behave exclusively as we would expect durative verbs to do. It is possible that *yaH- may have undergone a similar loss of definition.

 

Since you adamantly deny the possibility of statives of the form *CVH-, how would it be possible for you to say what inflections might have been used with it -- if it existed?

***

 

 

>   >   I do not derive it from either 'bound' or 'parted' but
rather
>   from 'liquid/liquify/disintegrate', *daH-, the inanimate _usage_
of
>   animate _ *daH-, 'part'.
>   >   ***
>
>   Are there animate and inanimate *verbs* in your grammar of IE?
How
>   could *daH- create a form that ends up being Sanskrit di:ná-?
What
>   was it in PIE? Especially, what is the segment /-i:-/ based on?
>
>   ***
>   Patrick writes:
>
>   Short answer, yes. Animate verbs are actions which humans take;
inanimate verbs are actions taken upon non-humans.
>
>   Very simply! *daHy- in zero grade: *H become *i;  *a becomes Ø;
diy- before consonant become di:-, before vowel becomes diy.
>   ***

That is not the way IE ablaut works.

***

Patrick writes:

 

I think it does, at least for Old Indian.

***

 

>
>   JER:
>   >   No, "non-vocalized laryngeal" means H. I am saying that a
>   sequence of
>   >   laryngeal + /y/ is realized [Hi]. In the PIE form of this
the
>   laryngeal is
>   >   preserved as a consonant.
>   >
>   >   ***
>   >   Patrick writes:
>   >
>   >   And how is [Hi] realized in IE?
>   >   ***
>   As [hi], [xi] or [GWi] (GW being a voiced labiovelar fricative),
>   depending on which laryngeal it is.
>
>   ***
>   Patrick writes:
>
>   And how is this, in turn, realized in IE-derived language?
>   ***

Mostly as /i/.

***

Patrick writes:

 

Oh, so laryngeals do not leave any traces in IE-derived languages?

 

Patrick

***

Jens




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