Re: [tied] Re: *ap-/*up-/*ip- , rivers in -r

----- Original Message -----

From: tgpedersen

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 4:46 AM

Subject: [tied] Re: *ap-/*up-/*ip- , rivers in -r

>
>   After all, how would one get away with claiming the adverb
>   (preverb/pre/postposition) *ab is IE? It's got an /a/, it's got
>   a /b/, it's got nothing else, and once you said /a/, and you
>   said /b/, you'll have to say 'non-IE'
>
>
>   Torsten
>
>
>   PCR:
>
>   It is implied that */a/ and */b/ suggest non-IE origin.
>
>   This is simply not true.
>
>   Standard IE reconstruction acknowledges IE */a/ as a result of
earlier *H2V or *-VH2.
>
>   IE */b/, though rare, is present in many other almost certainly
IE words (e.g. *bak-, 'staff'; *bu-, 'lip')

 

I'm almost positive *bak- is variant of *pak-, *pag- which means
approximately the same, and that they're are both loans. And BTW
Proto-Austronesian is full of words in *pa- with related meanings.
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpg.html
At least Latin 'bucca' "mouth" looks very un-Latin, with a /b/ and a
geminate.

 

PCR: I am not asserting that IE *bak- and Proto-Austronesian words in *pa- may ultimately be unrelated but that is no reason to correct IE *bak- to *pag/k-. I think it might be important to separate the meanings 'staff' and 'stake'. My suggestion, based on my own studies, would suggest that 'staff' is connected with *p?a, 'piece' (a staff being broken off from a larger limb), and that 'stake' is connected to *pha, 'flat'.

 

>
>   *ab- (*H2Vb-) would also conform to the canonical IE root
pattern: *CVC.

Problem is Hittite has 'appo' "away" without any laryngeal.
Kuryl/owicz posited one that disappeared without a trace, which you
would have to do to. To me, it suggests that 'appo' was loaned at
some time after the laryngeal disappeared it must have had once
judging from the Semitic forms. 
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Op.html

 

PCR: The 'trace' is the */a/ in non-Hittite languages

 

And yes, I do assume that an earlier */?a/ shows up in Hittite as /a/a:/.

 

You do your argument no favor to write Hittite "'appo' "away"" when <o> does not exist in Hittite, and 'away' is a meaning taken from Sanskrit and Greek. The Hittite written form is <a-ap-pa>, which, to me, suggests /*a:pa/, and the meaning is 'afterwards, again, back'.

 

My own work suggest that <a-ap-pa> represents *?a-pha, 'here-move over/by' = 'back here'.

 

Torsten


Patrick



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